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Some people are distinctly gay or lesbian from.their physical appearance, but there are many that you wouldn’t really know. But not even that’s a good guide. I have known camp men who liked women and were not gay, and also quite butch women who liked men – one of them was a teacher of mine and her marriage caused a lot of trouble… I think proving she nust have really loved her husband!
Sexuality is an extremely complicated issue. We have seen it as simple for thousands of years, which has led us to make HUGE, fundamental assumptions that are completely wrong.
My advice: Talk, at length and deeply, with LGBTQ people, both inside and outside the LDS Church. Listen to their pain and their stories of hurt and betrayal. To get a sense of it from another perspective, talk with African American members in many parts of Utah about what they have experienced. So many are sickening. We have hurt both populations, generally, in massive, unspeakable ways. Before we begin or continue to talk about them in simplistic ways, we must stop and talk with them with NO agenda other than to understand and appreciate them and their unique scars we have inflicted – to truly get to understand them and love them for who they actually are.
I guarantee you some, if not all, of your current feelings and perspectives will change.
Falcon20Commander wrote:
Now then, how do you know that God would have made it possible to become straight? What if He didn’t want it for them in this life? I don’t feel comfortable accepting what you said “he would have made it possible.”
I don’t know that, but consider this: God loves us and wants us to be happy. I don’t believe that God would require anyone to live a life of misery just to be saved. Most gays are downright miserable in the church because they are not really accepted in any capacity unless they essentially deny themselves a major part of their identity, and deny themselves one of the great pleasures in life (romantic relationships) that heterosexual members can enjoy. They’re put in a situation where they must deny themselves the one thing which is more or less the pinnacle of LDS theology/culture: being sealed. They won’t be happy being sealed to someone of the opposite sex and recent history suggests there are disastrous consequences for trying. They can’t be made straight and attempts at it have had horrific results.So basically, if you’re gay, the church is not a happy place for you unless you’re willing to give up most of what gives you value in LDS society. I do not think God expects that big of a sacrifice from anyone, so at this point, I will say that the vast majority of gays are better off outside the church. I believe God is understanding of this and will apply mercy appropriately. I hope that one day, somehow, the church can be a great place of support for gays, but right now, it can get pretty ugly and toxic.
If God wants us all to be happy, why does He make it so hard (perhaps impossible) for gays? There are only two ways of fixing the problem: changing the person and changing the church. If He wanted gays to be happy in the church by being straight, He would have made that possible. That leaves only one option: change the church to be more empathetic and provide the proper support to do whatever it is that is expected. The expectations are far higher than the support, so either the expectations must go down or the support must go up (or some combination). Without that, I don’t think we can expect to see many [happy] active gay members.
Falcon20Commander wrote:
What if the church is doing the right thing?
Then a lot of us are wrong. Plain and simple.Yet we will still act according to the dictates of our own conscience. God understands that. If we are wrong, He will be merciful to all those who struggle with LGBT+ issues.
Falcon20Commander wrote:
I believe they are, they are just not going about it the best way they can.
The church has handled the issue very hamhandedly and is not very well acquainted with the issue. I don’t expect any doctrine to change (it may, but it doesn’t necessarily have to), but I hope they can at least come to a more empathetic solution to the problem. Mormon and Gay is a step in the right direction at least.I can’t add much on homosexuality, that hasn’t been said already. It’s a very complicated issue. I’m not sure HOW the Church should handle it better, and I have yet to see any ideas (other than doing a complete 180 on their doctrine). I understand on the surface why so many people would be upset over the Nov policy; but at the same time, I understand the Church not wanting to contradict their parent’s lifestyle. A baby blessing is not a saving ordinance, and it in effect makes you a member before you are baptized. I think it’s easy to critize when someone (or some organization) makes a decision you don’t like, but it can be very difficult to come up with a better solution. Should we “legalize” homosexual relations within the Church? Tens of thousands would leave because they were offended and did not agree with the leadership’s position. Plus, the Church leadership is pretty firm that homosexual relations are a sin, contrary to the commandments of God. God would smite them for blasphemy. True or not, that’s their reality. Any other ideas?
BTW, I LOVED the way your post started.
Falcon20Commander wrote:
Perhaps I’m a minority… “I know you like Donald Trump, and always have, but I can’t stand him.”
It made me laugh.
Personally, I think he’s a terrible person (most politicians are). But at the same time, he is an absolute genius. I am seriously amazed by his cunning brilliance, his patience, and long game. I completely understand why he gets so much hate; he’s the devil. But I’m glad he’s on our side.
dande48 wrote:
I think it’s easy to critize when someone (or some organization) makes a decision you don’t like, but it can be very difficult to come up with a better solution. Should we “legalize” homosexual relations within the Church? Tens of thousands would leave because they were offended and did not agree with the leadership’s position. Plus, the Church leadership is pretty firm that homosexual relations are a sin, contrary to the commandments of God. God would smite them for blasphemy. True or not, that’s their reality. Any other ideas?
The only compromises I can imagine are to allow gay married couples to be in full fellowship but not sealed. Or perhaps baptized but not endowed. As it stands now, they can already come to church and participate in lessons. They could even get de-facto callings if their bishop is so inclined.I’ll trust that God has a better solution than that and I’ll hope that a future prophet will care enough about the issue to be open to the revelation.
Beefster wrote:
The only compromises I can imagine are to allow gay married couples to be in full fellowship but not sealed. Or perhaps baptized but not endowed. As it stands now, they can already come to church and participate in lessons. They could even get de-facto callings if their bishop is so inclined.I’ll trust that God has a better solution than that and I’ll hope that a future prophet will care enough about the issue to be open to the revelation.
That would require unlabelling it as a sin. As it stands, a hetero-couple who is living together is subject to the same rules as a homo-couple (legally married or otherwise), with the biggest difference being the heteros have a quick fix (get married), and the homos do not. As for the solutions of God, you’ve got a lot more faith than I do.
Everyone, I appreciate the viewpoints that have been listed. It takes me an hour to go to church. I don’t have a car where I work, but there is a psychologist who gives me a ride there when I am stationed in Minnesota. This man has a doctorate in psychology, and is in his late sixties. He is a clinical psychologist, and has helped countless individuals. I discussed homosexuality with him yesterday, to garner a better understanding of the matter. I have never investigated this issue before writing my first post since I have never been afflicted by it, nor any of my close cohorts. My viewpoint has changed…
I was firm in my beliefs that I first posted. Now I am three times as firm. He and I discussed this for an hour, and agreed that sexual relations are only permitted in the eyes of the Lord within the bounds of heterosexual marriage. That is what has always been said. I am single, and am expected to not have sexual relations until I am married. That expectation is the same for people who stay single their whole lives. Sometimes, there is a double standard with homosexual individuals. Again, it is my testimony, after studying this more that marriage between heterosexual couples is the only time such relations can be expressed. That is what I have studied, discussed, and prayed about, and that is not changing. The church won’t change on that stance either. If it does, I would happily leave it (there aren’t very many things that would make me leave it). I am not going to go and try to change others’ viewpoints, but hopefully there can be a mutual respect.
Despite that, I am grateful for these viewpoints listed because I do believe that homosexual individuals need treated better in the church. The brethren are now saying that sexual orientation cannot be changed, and are encouraging people to live a life of discipleship and servitude for Christ. As tough as that may sound, someone always has it worse, like schizophrenia victims (something else the psychologist also touched on). I also am not a crusader for the recent church policy for the withholding of baptismal blessings for children with homosexual parents. I am certainly not against it though, since the same regulation is in effect for those raised under polygamy and in some circumstances, Islam.
dande48 wrote:It made me laugh.
Personally, I think he’s a terrible person (most politicians are). But at the same time, he is an absolute genius. I am seriously amazed by his cunning brilliance, his patience, and long game. I completely understand why he gets so much hate; he’s the devil. But I’m glad he’s on our side.
Maybe that comment was a little out of place for this forum, but I was telling the whole story haha. Not that anyone on the planet cares, but I sure like him. I agree with your last sentence
😆 .Using the words “afflicted” and “homos” says it all. I simply will reiterate what others have said: Talk deeply with LGTBQ individuals, including active members. It makes a difference.
[Admin Note]: I am closing this thread. It will go downhill fast and turn into a passionate argument if it remains open. That isn’t who we are or what we do – and I don’t want thisnissue to drive someone away from the site.
- The topic ‘Perhaps I’m a minority…’ is closed to new replies.