Personal and Family Progressive Mormonism

[Anonymous]

I imagine this topic has been discussed here; if so, please point me to them. If not, I would love to get your input!

I really love the idea of not allowing antiquated conventions dictate our personal and family worship. We have touched on this before, but I find it so powerful and empowering how the Mormon Stories podcasts have made us question how things are done (we just listened to the episodes about raising children).

It is interesting to contemplate how far to take this. Should wives participate in priesthood blessings at home? Should we pray to both our Heavenly Parents? I look forward to working out a balance of progressiveness and healthy religious behaviors and not being dismissed as a wackjob.

We are limited in what we can do in church meetings proper, but I think we can be a voice for progressiveness there as well. Ah, I can’t remember the context right now (Perhaps it was Lee White in that same episode?) but I love the story when a bishop decided to have a the author of a book on Emma Smith speak to the ward even though she had a gag order saying, “I didn’t receive the memo”

One final point I want to make is that I believe there is SO MUCH support in LDS theology for progressive ideas and actions. This gives me hope. Women do technically have the priesthood. We value agency and the opportunity to grow. Most of all, we believe in continuing and personal revelation that allows for change and improvement. I have hope we will be able to overcome the accretions of cultural intolerance.

So how do we personally correct and soften the damage that is done in the Church? How far can we go while remaining part of the community?

[Anonymous]

I believe it is totally doable, but think carefully about how your children will be treated. If you attend meetings regularly, church is a large part of their social life. “Fitting in” is a big thing.

I come from a progressive family. Although my parents taught me TBM standards/doctrines/cultural behaviors, they had very unconventional methods of raising us kids. We were home schooled. Vegetarian. Didn’t receive vaccinations. Liberally-indoctrinated. The list goes on. My parents were “scholarly” mormons (read Nibley a lot), and could always find a way to use scriptures and prophet-quotes to support their decisions.

I remember feeling very self-righteous when we learned about the WOW in my primary classes, knowing that I had more information about the intended interpretation than my peers. I pointed out the phrasing about only eating meat sparingly, in times of cold and famine, and explained that everyone else was choosing to ignore the obvious meaning because of unrighteousness and unwillingness to obey (what my parents had told me). Of course, that made me very popular with my classmates!

I knew I was right! My parents knew everything!

I’m glad my parents were a little on the outskirts because, growing up on the fringe, I now feel less out of place (given my current faith crisis) than I believe I would if my family was “normal.” I have very few mormon friends my age, so I’m not really criticized for my questions, except by my family (or when I go to church). I comfortably fit in my circle of friends.

If you want your kids to stay in the church/never question/be good little TBMs, don’t be progressive.

If you want to be progressive, there’s a good chance they will have bigger problems with the church later on, possibly deciding to leave when they’re on their own.

Or they might be completely comfortable living on the outskirts, knowing they aren’t fully accepted by their peers, knowing they will never really fit in, but being happy with the freedom they have to believe on their own terms.

[Anonymous]

I think being progressive is WAY OUT THERE given the powerful Church culture we have. When I made progressive comments I can feel the judgmentalism in the room among TBM’s. I think it’s good to yearn for it, but ultimately you have to respect the norms of any group you choose to belong to. That’s true in your work, your community etcetera. You can try to initiate change, but when the organization isn’t ready for it, it’s time to simply do all you can within the existing constraints without upsetting the apple cart — particularly with the clout leaders have to deny participation in ordinances, temples, etcetera.

And I think you can’t let these cultural norms become such a sticking point that you lose commitment. In one of our Sunday School lessons, I broached this subject, and one longstanding member with a famous Mormon last name told the story about an old friend. This old friend was disturbed by the priesthood ban, went less active and withdrew his name from the Church because of it. Then, five years later the ban was lifted. He was right, but he wasn’t patient enough.

So, often, patience is in order — these things can change over time. But they often have to work themselves out in their own time. Even Ghandi had to wait a long time before Indian Independence fell “like a ripe apple” from the tree.

[Anonymous]

I agree with what you posted, SilentDawning, which is why I purposely focused my question–and I would like to see discussion–in the personal and family realm. I think there is still good we can do in the Church, but you are right; there is much more to take into account, and patience is required.

Macalla, my kids are already vegetarians.

[Anonymous]

This is one of those discussions that is going to make me come across as very negative – but since you asked, I will give you my two-cents.

I personally don’t see much hope in the church progressing significantly in our life time. I have really been trying to be hopeful and positive that change was coming, but all my optimism got thrown out the window during October General Conference. From my perspective of the church as an armchair quarterback, I think the talks from Oaks, Costa (14 fundamentals of the prophet), BKP and Bedard in general, have pretty well set the church back AT LEAST 30 years. it will be interesting to see in April if Monson and the Apostles continue that direction, or if they try to correct the damage that was done.

Sure, moderates and NOMs like us can do a little bit of good at church, but I don’t see the church leadership really “bending” much on significant issues -and the cultural is as fundamental as ever, IMO , and eventually I suppose most of “us” will get so frustrated that it will no longer be worth it and give up — that’s if we don’t get ran out, or kicked out first.

I don’t know — there are those here who have hope, and good for them. I have none, not after what I heard in conference in October. I’m going to stay until they run me out – and that really is just a matter of time, because the church hasn’t bent to accommodate my beliefs, and I have pretty well drawn a line in the sand as well about their cultural commandments – that I’m no longer going to live/believe cultural and dogmatic teachings that I don’t have faith in.

I think folks like Ray and Heber and Orson and some others here, who are still active and WILLING to live the outward appearance commandments like WoW, tithing, white shirts etc, have a much better chance of bringing change. I don’t know how they do it personally, but, guys like me who WON’T live these outward appearance commandments have or will pretty well lose all credibility within the wards and branches, be considered unworthy to hold significant leadership positions, and pretty well become ineffective at influencing traditional members over time because a mormon who drinks a beer or wears a blue shirt is a heretics at best, and an apostate at worse, in most LDS members eyes..

So I guess my advice is, is if one really wants to make a difference and hopes the church will become progressive, they better first make sure they have that TR and wear a white shirt to church, and second, be damn careful what they say and who they say it to. To me that is not worth it — I was too miserable living that kind of a lifestye. Now I stay LDS on my terms, take the good stuff that I like about the church, jettison all the crap. I’m much happier and at peace, but I really doubt that the “church is big enough” for me really in the long run.

[Anonymous]

I suppose if one wants to REALLY be positive and NIAVE about what happened at GC, they could look at Oaks and the 14 fundalmentals as being directed towards TBMs rather than NOMs —- in the sense that the leadership is going to make some big progressive changes, so they were softing up the traditional orthodox membership by telling them that the prophet speaks for god and will never lead you astray, and that if your personal line of communicaiton is different than the priesthood’s leadershp line, than you’re getting your information from the devil, not god —- and then spring something like we have received a new revelation from god that….

“women will now be able to exercise their priesthood at church,” or “we will now accept that sexual relations of gay couples who are lawfully wed is okay and part of the plan of salvation,” or that “it is no longer necessary to be a full tithe payer and live the WofW to become a member of the church,” or “starting today the church is going to publish it’s financial statements on the the church website,” or “even though we don’t’ understand everything, we admit that JS and BY did some questionable practices,” or, “the LDS church is a great institution, but there are many other pathways that one might follow to find god.” or “it has come to our understanding that the BoM and the PoGP we not actually translations, but more like channeling — and we have decided that the PoGP will no longer be part of our cannon of scripture,” or “we highly encourage all women to get an education and hold off on having children until they graduate from college,” or “it is no longer a church policy to wear a white shirt and tie, and expect leadership and temple workers to be clean shaven,” or “a-holes like cwald no longer need a TR to hold a priesthood leadership position,” or “we highly encourage the saints to drink a glass of wine, and tea everyday to help them stay healthy and better live the WoW,” or etc etc.

And then if the traditional/cultural/TBM type mormons complain or question the Prophet — just go back and quote Oaks or Costa’s 14 fundamental talks.

But, don’t hold your breath of anything like this happening in our lifetime.

[Anonymous]

I’m not sure it will happen in cwald’s lifetime, but I think it will happen in mine. (We need a symbol for drums and a cymbal crash. Just sayin’.)

I’m out of time tonight, but I had to throw in that joke before I leave. I’ll try to add something serious when I return.

[Anonymous]

I look forward to hearing what Ray has to say on this.

Cwald, I hear what you are saying about the mainstream Church, although I have been hearing some pretty awesome things from wards in California, such as the Relief Society running their own callings autonomous of the Bishop, doing things their own way, etc. But of course you are right that there is a strong homogenizing force in the Church.

Again, I am hoping we can discuss *personal* and *family* religion. For example, my wife and I have started to pray to both Heavenly Father and Mother together. I am comfortable with her participating when I give priesthood blessings (There is a quote by Joseph F. Smith that approves of that, the mother adding faith to the father’s faith and priesthood). We do have to be careful with how our children interact at Church of course to minimize confrontation, but I think and hope that we can make our homes a haven of progressive Mormonism.

This is what I was hoping this thread would be, a chance to explore how we can do this, ideas, experiences, etc. I really enjoyed the Mormon Stories podcast about raising your children in a non-traditional LDS home.

[Anonymous]

Sorry it took so long, but my initial reaction to the central point of the post is that it all depends on the “balance” of one’s marriage – and that it should happen at the comfort level of the “least progressive / most orthodox” spouse. It also should take into consideration the cognitive maturity AND natural inclinations of the children, again geared primarily to the “weakest of the weak” in this area. People really are different in regard to much of this, and either approach can be dangerous to some people, so I would rather err on the side of sharing less than sharing more.

Those decisions simply have to made at the personal level – and I have chosen to tackle it very carefully, incrementally and selectively.

All of my kids know I don’t agree with everything said over the pulpit, no matter who says it – but I only bring it up when I feel the statement is particularly egregious or damaging in and of itself. My wife and I teach Seminary in our home, so we are quite open about our views with our teenage kids and the other girl who attends our class – but I am more sensitive in that setting than I am just in our home, since the other girl has been inactive for years and is a bit . . . naive (for lack of a better word) . . . naturally. She really does need more simple answers right now, so I make sure any heterodoxy I introduce is in the realm of what I believe to be the basics.

Iow, I share many of my beliefs with my kids, and most of them with my wife, but I do so at the level I believe they can handle – and in a way that they understand it’s just my opinion. I never ridicule what others say, unless it’s astoundingly ridiculous (and then I usually just roll my eyes and shrug), mostly because I want my kids to know that I won’t make fun of them if they decide they believe differently than I do. I want them to know that I believe some things very differently than others do AND that it’s ok if they do the same in their own unique way.

[Anonymous]

I feel I must protect my kids from myself. I honestly feel that my divergent LDS thinking is partly due to the foibles in my personality and upbringing that lead to negative thinking about the Church at times. I don’t want to pass that on to my children. So I try to remain silent about those disturbing aspects of the Church. If they choose to grow up as Traditional Believing Mormons, I shall be very happy. If they have commitment or even faith crises along the way, I”m there for them, philosophy in hand.

[Author]

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