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I attended church today and the topic was personal revelation. I really struggled sitting through this for a couple of reasons–first, the opening quote the speaker used was from lds.org defining revelation:
Quote:According to our faithfulness, we can receive revelation to help us with our specific personal needs, responsibilities, and questions and to help us strengthen our testimony.
“According to our faithfulness” — that sentence really bothers me. If someone is really down and struggling, especially with their testimony and faith, this implies that you will receive revelation,
only if you are faithful enoughAt least that’s how I read it and how it was portrayed in our SM today. Basically, that in order to get personal revelation you must remain faithful and upright or the spirit will not be allowed to be near us. That if we aren’t faithful enough, we can just forget it. I’ve been searching through the forums and there has been previous topic threads about personal revelation but nothing, that I found, about personal revelations directly correlating with faithfulness. For me, during my current whopper of a faith crisis, I feel that personal revelation is even MORE important then ever before, but now I’m wondering if that’s why I’m floundering–because my “faithfulness” isn’t good enough to receive revelation?
Grrr…feeling down, frustrated, and bit peeved over the pompous way the talks were delivered in SM today (which brings me to my 2nd issue)–the speaker actually said that it is through the Priesthood that everything happens-“if a priesthood holder plants a garden, and the garden grows, then it grows how the Lord wants it to grow based on the Priesthood holder’s power” WTH?? And if you don’t do everything to maintain your Priesthood Power, your garden won’t grow…
No clue how this pertained to personal revelation, but something about how the Priesthood is in every facet of our lives (yes, even down to the mundane tasks such as gardening) and that in order to maintain this power (not authority but power of) we have to remain righteous or we won’t have personal revelations.
Okay–so I’m really not trying to mock anyone and I’ve been in the church long enough to understand that maybe this member’s talk didn’t come across like they had planned (at least not to me), but I’m feeling some guilt and frustration that maybe I’m just not faithful enough. I just didn’t get it today. Everyone after SM was like, “that was such a great meeting” “the Spirit was really there” etc., and I went to class thinking–I’m a fish out of water…
At one time church leaders would announce callings and say “So and so has been interviewed and found worthy to be called to the position of ……”. I think it falls into the same category of the “according to your faithfulness”.
I personally think God takes a longer view of your life and your character. And at times, blesses you in spite of inactivity etcetera. He is more patient and kind than you hear at church. At church it is openly stated, or implied that if you aren’t living your life in strict accordance with the commandments, you are cut off. I’m not sure that is true, necessarily. At least, not in the short-term.
I have a pet theory that there are 2 principle models of Christian religions today: 1 is that of exclusive truth and that we should make all kinds of sacrifices to adhere to it. 2 is that the church community is so welcoming and accepting that you would want to be there even if you aren’t convinced of their teachings. I sometimes see the LDS church “one-note” constant harping on worthiness and wonder why we can’t be more balanced in talking about love, grace, mercy, and forgiveness. It really bothers me that we have twisted grace to mean “enabling power.” That may be one side of grace but it seems to be the side that buttresses our works based worthiness approach and we promote that one facet self servingly to the detriment of all other facets.
conflicted wrote:the speaker actually said that it is through the Priesthood that everything happens-“if a priesthood holder plants a garden, and the garden grows, then it grows how the Lord wants it to grow based on the Priesthood holder’s power” WTH?? And if you don’t do everything to maintain your Priesthood Power, your garden won’t grow…
In our ward a young female missionary talked about JS. And how JS did more for the world save JC than anyone else. And how a few years ago they had the 200 yr JS celebration and Utah went JS crazy. And all anyone could talk about was JS and her church leaders at the time asked all the YW to make JS crafts to honor JS. She said that JS touches every moment of our lives and then went about giving examples. JS gave us the church, gave us the BOM that we should read every day, gave us temples, gave us the knowledge that God loves us (WTH! is she running out of things to say?), gave us prayer (really?)…
Anyway….I just interpret it through my mental filter to have her say – “I have had many blessings in my life that I am profoundly grateful for. The LDS Gospel is a big part of my life. I attribute many of these blessings to JS.”
I dislike the priesthood gardener comment. That’s odd. But the statement that personal revelation is tied to our faithfulness doesn’t bother me in the least. In part, that is because I am comfortable making my own definition of ‘faithfulness’. No doubt many think of it as paying tithing, doing home teaching, attending meetings, keeping the sabbath day. I think of it as earnestly seeking spiritual-living, praying (or meditating), pondering, being charitable, being humble, being quick to see the good in people, being slow to criticize, etc, etc, etc.
If there is a God, I would fully expect that he would not withhold inspiration or comfort from those who sincerely seek him, no matter their present condition.
However, I can tell you that it was much easier for me to gain ‘spiritual’ insight, inspiration, ‘revelation’ when I was a missionary than after, and especially more than now. Why? Because I dedicated my days and nights to doing God’s work. Seeking opportunities to spread the “good news” of Jesus’ atonement, I studied the scriptures to learn about him. I prayed constantly to be close to him. I looked for ways to serve my fellow man. I discarded all earthly distractions. So, I was close to God and had ready access to his spirit. Put another way, I’m sure that the Dali Lama is a much more spiritual person than I am. I’m certain that Thomas Aquinas and Francis of Assisi were closer to God than me. I’m sure Martin Luther could feel God’s presence more often than me. I’m OK with that.
On a more general note, I find it works well for me at church to listen to talks as an expression of someone else’s beliefs. I don’t always agree with them, actually, the reality is that I probably disagree more often than not. But I’m not there to measure how accurate others are, with my own beliefs as the standard. I have my own beliefs, and they have theirs. That’s fine. Occasionally, I hear something that makes me frustrated, as the gardening comment might have, but for the most part, I simply accept that this is their faith, and I’m not there either to agree or disagree.
Thanks for your thoughts and stories-they really helped. It also helps to just have some quiet time at home and really ponder where I’m at, right now, with my faith crisis. I really like the idea Quote:God takes a longer view of your life and your character. And at times, blesses you in spite of inactivity etcetera.
. This definitely helps me to put my feelings into a better perspective.
Thanks again
:thumbup: I talked about the general worthiness issue in a Sunday School lesson recently. If you are interested, go to my post entitled “My New Calling” and read the summary about Elder Oaks’ talk on “Two Lines of Communication”. ( http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=3481&start=100#p59231 I figure if Saul, of Tarsus, could receive revelation, FAR more people are “worthy” of it than most members can comprehend – but I don’t begrudge them their view, since we all need to find what works for us.
Just read through your “Two Lines of Communication” lesson summary. Wow! Very good–I didn’t even think of Saul, of Tarsus until you mentioned it. Loved your last line…
Quote:I told them that such a balance (general outlines and personal adaptation) is what I read in Elder Oaks’ talk – honoring and valuing each, but crafting a personal combination that is our own.
First off the SM speaker was just doing the best he could and was probably quoting someone else, so be kind and give him the benefit of doubt. I am sure he realizes that proper planting, watering and feeling is what makes a garden grow. I get bothered by these kind of things also but I know that for some people that they like to hear these types of things. I have to speak often at church and I know for a fact that some of my comments have up set people because I have been called into the SP office but at the same time I have had many people ask for copies of my talks because the words have touched them. I believe that personal revelation is a very worthy goal, but often times is very difficult to identify in tern of what you might be feeling right now as a person going through a faith crisis because 1st off you do not know what feelings to trust because your trust has be violated by the church with regards to the things you have been taught and the things you are now finding. Secondly, some of the revelation you might get will be different than what you hear over the pulpit at church and then it is confusing. There are many examples of this, like how to pay tithing, when to accept a calling, going to the temple instead of going to your kids baseball game, etc. I felt the same way and still do at times because even though my FC is not new any longer it is still a part of my life and I have started referring to it as a faith transition because that is what it has become even though at times it still feels like a crisis. My personal revelation has been that I no longer need the church to tell me how to be in order to be close to God. I go every week but if I couldn’t for some reason I know that I am a good person and that I will do good things. The church is a good reminder, but I have learned that I give the church power and not the other way around. It has taken me over 50 years to figure that out. Good luck.
(Start rant) This is becoming more and more of an issue for me. Having to filter out the talks and lessons. It’s bemusing that I used to be able to sit through it all and give it a resounding ‘Amen.’ Some of it doesn’t make sense even from an orthodox perspective. Someone yesterday said we only had the blessing of community because of the priesthood. And pot luck lunches after church!
In the Sunday School lesson (same one, on priesthood), the teacher said “there were some important dates in the restoration of the priesthood. Look them up if you like, I’ve never had a head for dates and I don’t find them interesting. 1835 was when the last quorum, the quorum of the 70, was organised I think. It said something like that in the manual. It was all sorted after 1835 I think.”
I wanted to cry. This guy is most certainly heading for a quick and painful shelf-crash moment if he ever does get around to checking those boring dates.
In priesthood, on tithing, a man in his 50s who has been a life-long member said: “I didn’t realise the church had the law of the tithe before President Snow, I thought he revealed it.” No-one mentioned the fact that 1899 was really a fundraising rally for an organisation facing bankruptcy.
If I’d pointed out the reality of the problems with the early priesthood, the debt situation and the changes definition of tithing I’d be the heretic. Even though they are the ones in error (from their own books, not even a critical distortion)!
Grin and bear it. But for how long? Will there ever really be a change of attitudes, despite the work of the Givens/Bushman crowd. A whole generation or two will have to die off first.
(/end rant… ahem… thanks)
mackay11, fwiw, the actual manual says clearly that tithing was important to get the Church out of debt and not be beholden to creditors. We read those sections of the manual in our lesson today. Old-Timer wrote:mackay11, fwiw, the actual manual says clearly that tithing was important to get the Church out of debt and not be beholden to creditors. We read those sections of the manual in our lesson today.
I know, problem is people often seem to skip that in lessons I attend. I’m getting tired of always being the contrary one.
I considered raising it, but also wanted to respect the direction the teacher wanted to take.
Old-Timer wrote:I talked about the general worthiness issue in a Sunday School lesson recently. If you are interested, go to my post entitled “My New Calling” and read the summary about Elder Oaks’ talk on “Two Lines of Communication”. (
http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=3481&start=100#p59231 I figure if Saul, of Tarsus, could receive revelation, FAR more people are “worthy” of it than most members can comprehend – but I don’t begrudge them their view, since we all need to find what works for us.
I enjoyed your lesson… But had to ask, is this paragraph talking about me:
Quote:
I told them about a member I know online who argues all the time with people almost solely by quoting former church leaders who agree with him. He ignores those that express different opinions and almost never includes original thoughts of his own. I like the man and try not to argue with him, but I am saddened by that type of “quote fighting” – since it says, at the core, that he wants church leaders to do his thinking for him and, therefore, has surrendered his own right to receive answers from God directly.
I know I use a lot of quotes but wouldn’t characterise it as having church leaders do the thinking for me. Quite the opposite.
conflicted wrote:For me, during my current whopper of a faith crisis, I feel that personal revelation is even MORE important then ever before, but now I’m wondering if that’s why I’m floundering–because my “faithfulness” isn’t good enough to receive revelation?
Hi, conflicted – I know this feeling of needing revelation more desperately than ever, but fearing that the conduit has been broken by your questioning. I think (like On Own Now said) that you can try to define for yourself what “faithfulness” is. That’s not as blasphemous as it sounds, because, in fact, EVERYONE does that. It’s life. I’m more honest with myself. I know what’s motivating me, what’s a convenient excuse, what’s lazy for me, what’s needful for my mental health. If “faithful” also means “true,” I’m trying to be that. I try to follow the most prominent impressions that I get to do good.
Ann wrote:conflicted wrote:For me, during my current whopper of a faith crisis, I feel that personal revelation is even MORE important then ever before, but now I’m wondering if that’s why I’m floundering–because my “faithfulness” isn’t good enough to receive revelation?
Hi, conflicted – I know this feeling of needing revelation more desperately than ever, but fearing that the conduit has been broken by your questioning. I think (like On Own Now said) that you can try to define for yourself what “faithfulness” is. That’s not as blasphemous as it sounds, because, in fact, EVERYONE does that. It’s life. I’m more honest with myself. I know what’s motivating me, what’s a convenient excuse, what’s lazy for me, what’s needful for my mental health. If “faithful” also means “true,” I’m trying to be that. I try to follow the most prominent impressions that I get to do good.
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No, mackay11, that paragraph wasn’t about you. It is about someone who is a good example of a “hobby Mormon” (someone who obsesses over one topic) and who thinks anyone who disagrees with him on that topic is, at least, borderline apostate. He wouldn’t dream of participating here.
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