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I agree for the most part with Ray in that the miraculous happens in very unpredictable ways and moments. The mystery about those events may – with research and/or contemplative pondering – may reveal itself as explainable. Or it may simply be an occurrence outside the world of perception of our five senses. That world beyond the five senses as the place of the unexplained/unexplainable exists among other things in the form of intuitions, hunches, serendipity and the like. Regarding miracles that are recorded and reported from our institutional history, I don’t think the actuality or reality of those events is so much the issue as the tendency of the Church to try to define the event in a faith promoting way. Worse is the psychological impact of the Church attempting to take ownership of a personal historical event and then exploit it.
My case in point is the miracle of survival of those who made it to Utah via the handcart route in 1856. I have a 4th-great grandmother and three children who survived the Martin Handcart ordeal which, as my wife insists, is an American story for everyone and not a Mormon story to be portrayed, explained and exploited by the Church for its on proselyting purposes. In that regard the film 17 Miracles became nothing more than a propaganda piece for the Church and exemplary of the almost casual way in which the Church honors its members who supposedly suffered and died for the cause and thereby are available to be utilized as martyrs for a loftier purpose.
The blatant folkloric portrayals of those miracles can be excused as faith promoting accounts that have no basis in fact.
Bottom line is that your personal miraculous experiences and my personal miraculous experiences are exactly that: yours and mine. They are ours to own. They are ours to interpret in any way that makes sense to us. That includes any experience of healing, prompting, burning bosom, finding money or any way to meet any crisis with which we have had to deal.
If we can remember that, then we actively take ownership of the magical, the miraculous and the mystical in our own lives. The Church has no claim on that stuff.
But like a big fat runaway railroad car, whenever the Church commandeers someone’s private miracle (and they are ALL private miracles from the get-go) it becomes almost impossible to refute the claims made or take any kind of opposing position to what is being claimed, what will be included in future folk lore, and what it all means.
Unknown wrote:The greatest miracle is a change of heart.
Yes indeed, why stories like “Arthus Lich king” and the recent movie “frozen” are so popular. The symbolism for inner desires abound in them.
Arthur Ruger wrote:
Bottom line is that your personal miraculous experiences and my personal miraculous experiences are exactly that: yours and mine. They are ours to own. They are ours to interpret in any way that makes sense to us. That includes any experience of healing, prompting, burning bosom, finding money or any way to meet any crisis with which we have had to deal.If we can remember that, then we actively take ownership of the magical, the miraculous and the mystical in our own lives. The Church has no claim on that stuff.
But like a big fat runaway railroad car, whenever the Church commandeers someone’s private miracle (and they are ALL private miracles from the get-go) it becomes almost impossible to refute the claims made or take any kind of opposing position to what is being claimed, what will be included in future folk lore, and what it all means.
Very big yes to this. Although to be more accurate, I despise any government or org when they take someone’s miracle they is suppose to be independent and meaningful to an individual and take it for there own to promote “X”.
And in doing so also try to define it in their view of what it “means”.
It’s the same thing for symbols– people should not take an individual’s symbol which is what a miracle is really is. Something that takes on a gives individual meaning to a event.
And take it for themselves and try to define it.
It completely ruins the power of the event for the individual. The power is lost forever when it occurs by ruining and changing the individual meaning. By trying to put an “official meaning on it”.
If we hold that the oaths we take in the temple are sacred(to sacred to be discussed). Then what of an individual miracle or symbol that is a lot more scared then the oath by it’s very nature?
How can we take that very sacred personal account and trumpet it.
It makes us hypocrite to bit reveal a sacred work but openly talk about another just as if not more so sacred to the individuals I’m the time and place. Especially for our own gain(selfish) for promoting faith(in us; again selfish since it’s not promoting greater faith of the community to god and just the church).
Anyway, it always bothered me big time when people do this to promote what ever it is their championing.
Leave it individual to the individuals in question. It’s more personal and sacred to them and their interpretation and what it means to them in any sacred object or act that we espouse. It couldn’t possibly be more personal, or destructive to the person and event to champion it for their cause and define its meaning.
It’s personal, make sure it’s treated that way. The meaning doesn’t belong to an individual outside those that experienced it and interpret it. Doing so destroys individual power.
Last thing on “interpretation of miracles”. The USA as a country that was impossible to form and start against all odds is taught as a “miracle”. The Native Americans didn’t quite view it the same way.
One persons miracle can be another’s nightmare. Another reason to keep it personal and not prod it around. What helps you can harm someone else who feels and interprets it differently.
I have never said miracles are when the impossible happen. The impossible can’t happen, by definition. Miracles are the unexplainable, either at the time or in mortality. Quote:
Could God create a miracle? I suppose so but it does not seem to be in his tool bag.Your very existence is a miracle. So yes it is there.
If miracles are defined as events that are highly unlikely to occur on their own then miracles happen all the time. The question is does this mean god intervened and altered the course of events. The fact that I exist is a miracle by this definition. So does this require God to make it a miracle? Could it be a miracle just the same by a process of unlikely events that occurred over billions of years?
Arthur Ruger wrote:I agree for the most part with Ray in that the miraculous happens in very unpredictable ways and moments. The mystery about those events may – with research and/or contemplative pondering – may reveal itself as explainable. Or it may simply be an occurrence outside the world of perception of our five senses. That world beyond the five senses as the place of the unexplained/unexplainable exists among other things in the form of intuitions, hunches, serendipity and the like.
Regarding miracles that are recorded and reported from our institutional history, I don’t think the actuality or reality of those events is so much the issue as the tendency of the Church to try to define the event in a faith promoting way. Worse is the psychological impact of the Church attempting to take ownership of a personal historical event and then exploit it.
My case in point is the miracle of survival of those who made it to Utah via the handcart route in 1856. I have a 4th-great grandmother and three children who survived the Martin Handcart ordeal which, as my wife insists, is an American story for everyone and not a Mormon story to be portrayed, explained and exploited by the Church for its on proselyting purposes. In that regard the film 17 Miracles became nothing more than a propaganda piece for the Church and exemplary of the almost casual way in which the Church honors its members who supposedly suffered and died for the cause and thereby are available to be utilized as martyrs for a loftier purpose.
The blatant folkloric portrayals of those miracles can be excused as faith promoting accounts that have no basis in fact.
Bottom line is that your personal miraculous experiences and my personal miraculous experiences are exactly that: yours and mine. They are ours to own. They are ours to interpret in any way that makes sense to us. That includes any experience of healing, prompting, burning bosom, finding money or any way to meet any crisis with which we have had to deal.
If we can remember that, then we actively take ownership of the magical, the miraculous and the mystical in our own lives. The Church has no claim on that stuff.
But like a big fat runaway railroad car, whenever the Church commandeers someone’s private miracle (and they are ALL private miracles from the get-go) it becomes almost impossible to refute the claims made or take any kind of opposing position to what is being claimed, what will be included in future folk lore, and what it all means.
Well said!!!
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