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Hello! This is my first post and I am glad to have found this site. I would greatly appreciate any insight. Just a little background, I am a convert who has been a member for about 8 years. I have a strong testimony of the Gospel, Joseph Smith, The Book of Mormon etc… .
My problem is that I feel deep discontent and hatred for my fellow Mormons! Sorry, I am just being honest. I did not feel this way when I joined the Church; I actually really liked 99.99 percent.
What I can’t stand is all the GOP talk at church, especially in Elders Quorum. Highlights include hearing my Elders Quorum President say that Obama is really a Muslim and a Saudi. Not a single man raised their hand and said No; Obama is not a Muslim or a Saudi. A different guest speaker also recently said that Pro Choice people are anti-responsibility.
To me, the Muslim comment is just racist. I am Pro-Life, I just don’t like insulting the other side. I think it is rude! Also, WTH does any of this have to do with the Atonement, Jesus, and Joseph Smith etc… ? I think if Mitt is elected, I don’t think I will be able to attend for the next 8 years! I don’t want to talk about politics on Sunday. I am at church for spiritual reasons. After all, I can stay home on Sunday and watch Fox News.
I also have a gay cousin. I don’t care what the church’s policy is on gays. However, once the members start donating money and volunteering their time to persecute people like my cousin, then I want to hate them!
My problems are that I feel hatred for my fellow Mormons. I refuse to socialize with them and I am miserable right now. I just want to be more tolerant towards the people I worship with. They just make me mad as hell and furious! I think I am going to go see a therapist who can help me with my hatred.
Any advice? I would greatly appreciate it. I didn’t know where else to turn. I really hope I have not offended anyone with my post. I just wrote what I felt.
Yoda (George Lucas) wrote:Yes, a Jedi’s strength flows from the Force. But beware of the dark side. Anger, fear, aggression; the dark side of the Force are they. Easily they flow, quick to join you in a fight. If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will, as it did Obi-Wan’s apprentice.
I know this to be absolutely true.inthenameofgeorgelucas…AMEN!
It’s good to recognize that it’s making you feel angry. If you’re up to it, I highly recommend injecting a little dissent. You can’t be angry when you do it though, otherwise it backfires. It can be very calm and reasonable — something as innocuous as simply asking people to stick to the Gospel during class and leave the politics out of it. That happened about a year or so ago in my ward in Elder’s Quorum. A brother was making a comment and starting going on about Obama being the anti-christ, etc. A faithful, active brother raised his hand and interjected “Let’s be careful. Some of us in this room voted for him. Let’s get back to the lesson topic.” Several others nodded their heads. It was all done very tastefully. That was the end of the matter.
I guarantee there are others in your ward silently stewing, who also feel like they are the only ones. I’ve made a hobby of finding those folks over the past several years. It never fails. You really never know who else is keeping up appearances and remaining silent. Think about it. That’s what you are doing too.
The dissenter effect is very powerful. It only takes one or two people to stand up to an overly vocal and loud minority to even things out. Most of the time it just appears the whole group is a certain way because a very small minority feels confident and bullies their views without enough questioning.
FWIW, I have a couple people in the team I manage at work that are fans of right-wing talk radio. We all sit within ear shot of each other. None of them are Mormon or even strongly religious that I know of, so it isn’t just an LDS Church thing. They have conversations a lot of the day about Obama criticisms and conspiracies, fueled by listening to Rush Limbaugh and local talk show hosts all day. I don’t usually say anything. But it also doesn’t really bother me. To each their own.
I like what Brian said: Quote:It’s good to recognize that it’s making you feel angry.
Once you recognize what you feel, you can deal with it in a positive way.
He also said:
Quote:If you’re up to it, I highly recommend injecting a little dissent. You can’t be angry when you do it though, otherwise it backfires. It can be very calm and reasonable — something as innocuous as simply asking people to stick to the Gospel during class and leave the politics out of it.
If that doesn’t work, walk out.
I would also talk to the EQP & tell him how you feel & if it continues you won’t be back.
Mike from Milton.
Thanks everyone for your words of wisdom! I’m going to try to think like a Jedi. As far as throwing in a little dissent, I’m not sure I’m ready for that. I don’t want to get on anyones radar. People bring this stuff up in part because they think everyone agrees. The sooner you let them know not everyone does, the sooner it stops. I spoke up in a branch presidency meeting when people got started on Obama’s birth certificate and nobody’s brought up politics since. Being off the radar isn’t always a good idea. AngryMormon wrote:Hello! This is my first post and I am glad to have found this site. I would greatly appreciate any insight.
Just a little background, I am a convert who has been a member for about 8 years. I have a strong testimony of the Gospel, Joseph Smith, The Book of Mormon etc… .
You will read stuff on this forum that might alter that testimony. Be wary.
AngryMormon wrote:What I can’t stand is all the GOP talk at church, especially in Elders Quorum. Highlights include hearing my Elders Quorum President say that Obama is really a Muslim and a Saudi. Not a single man raised their hand and said No; Obama is not a Muslim or a Saudi. A different guest speaker also recently said that Pro Choice people are anti-responsibility.
Why didn’t you raise your hand? Perhaps there are other men in the quorum who feel like you do, and they would come out of the woodwork if you spoke up.
AngryMormon wrote:I also have a gay cousin. I don’t care what the church’s policy is on gays. However, once the members start donating money and volunteering their time to persecute people like my cousin, then I want to hate them!
Activists are trying to force the rest of society to accept same sex marriage. I don’t think resisting that constitutes persecution.Pick and choose your battles very carefully, especially at first when your emotions are at the highest. Speaking in the heat of the moment without practice in controlling your tongue almost always leads to inappropriate reaction. So, practice on issues that aren’t seen as core Gospel topics, like politics – but do so, as Brian said, more as a stopper of inappropriate discussion than as an alternate argument. If people are spewing right or left wing political arguments, simply mention that those discussions aren’t Gospel-related and are more appropriate outside of church – in a calm, quiet “voice of reason”.
I guarantee I’ve heard anything you might hear (about pretty much any topic, frankly) and we have discussions threads about many, many topics here, so, if you want to frame your comments about anything in the following terms, feel free to do so:
Quote:“I have a friend who once told me . . .”
You don’t have to mention it was online or that it was written. Technically, you do have friends here who have “told you . . .” – so it’s totally honest to frame it that way.
Another option is to begin with something like,
“The Church leadership has asked us to dedicate our time in church meetings to discussing the Gospel not politics. Let’s get back to the focus of the lesson, please.”
(The irony of that statement also makes me grin, since, theoretically, the one in the middle of the crisis is asking the ones in the middle of their surety to get back in line with the Church leadership.
It usually helps if that is said with a grin or big smile as you speak. Besides, learning to smile when you speak is a wonderful thing. A genuine smile softens so many things that otherwise might sound harsh. I regularly smile as I type comments here, even when they are more blunt in my role as a moderator. I have practiced for decades, and it really does help me not let a negative reaction make what I say any harsher than it has to be – even when it really does have to be direct and pointed.
Nephite, activism is a two-edged sword. BOTH sides of any issue have “activists” – and the LDS Church and many of our fellow members functioned and continue to function as “activits” in the debate on same-sex marriage. I mention that only to point out that calling one side “activists” without acknowledging that the other side are the exact same thing is not productive and is, at best, misleading and discriminatory – and that basic recognition can go a long way toward internal peace concerning lots of issues, since it understands that people working passionately to affect change in which they believe is not a bad thing, in and of itself. We are asked to do it all the time, so we can’t ask others not to do it without becoming hypocrites to some degree.
AngryMormon, A few thoughts on controlling your anger, and co-existing with others.
– I loved your statement that you are pro-life but don’t like insulting the other side. To me, that is the key in all this. It’s an area of politics that I find incredibly distasteful… Many simply can’t acknowledge different points of view, and that is counter-productive. For any topic, if we can understand why WE think a certain way and then understand why THEY think differently, then we can cooperate and compromise where it makes sense. Yet at the same time, you need to bring something to the table. In the same post that you said that you “don’t like insulting the other side” you also accused church members of donating time and money specifically “to persecute people”. I think you need to recognize in yourself that you are taking the same kind of dismissive stance that you are calling out in others. The church is highly vested in the concept of marriage. I understand the church’s position on it. I don’t agree with it anymore, in part because of the church’s backing of Prop8, but I think it is unfair to say that the church or its general population desires to ramp up persecution against gays. Rather, they want to maintain a status quo that has existed since before the church was founded. In order to manage your anger issues, I believe it is critical that you accept that others can have a different opinion than you, and that you treat both them and their opinions with respect, the same way you approach your position on abortion. Not all opinions are worthy of respect, but with your anger/hatred issues, I’d recommending not parsing it that way, and just respect and accept everyone’s right to have an opinion.
– However, no matter how you feel about a given topic, and regardless of your respect for opinions of others, it is always wrong to bring politics into church. First of all, it’s silly to do so, because we have church congregations all over the world, from Angola to Zimbabwe. How you react to it is very important for you as an individual. This is a bit of a subtlety, but don’t be angry because you disagree… be annoyed that the topic is political. In other words, the issue is not what they think in their own homes, right? It’s that they voice it in the Gospel forum. Even if you agreed with them, it would be equally wrong. I like the advice you’ve gotten to object with a smile. Personally, but this is just my style, I’d probably do what Mike from Milton suggested and talk to the EQP privately before opening my mouth in EQ… actually, I don’t know, I might have. But now, that seems like the next logical step. Seems like it was the EQP that first caused the issue… I think you could have said something in the meeting then and there, but that opportunity is gone, so rather than waiting to pounce on in the next time, just talk to him. The church almost always stays out of politics. There will be a FP letter read to every congregation in the US, just before the election that reminds voters that the church doesn’t support any political party or candidate. I don’t think I heard either Obama’s or Romney’s name in general conference. Just realize that most members of the church in the US would never bring up politics in church and I believe most would feel uncomfortable when it does happen.
– Compartmentalize. I know people that are Eagles fans. I don’t hate them. I know non-LDS people that are fanatically for Romney and others that are fanatically for Obama. I still like them as people. I know a guy that is obsessed with the idea that JFK was killed by a conspiracy. So what? If I wanted, I could come up with all kinds of looney labels for him, until I decided that I just can’t associate with such a nut-job. Instead, I just think it’s funny and still enjoy his company… and I don’t bring up the subject.
– Hatred is never productive… only destructive. It’s one thing to confront a person about an unacceptable behavior, but I’m sure that you can see that your reaction is causing you to generalize poor behavior against innocent people (“I feel deep discontent and hatred for my fellow Mormons!”). Therefore, it’s probably right that you seek help from a therapist.
I have tried to alter the course of the conversation a few times, the following is an example of this working well: Quote:I consider myself to be a balancer in my ward. When the discussion veers too far into judgmentalism, I try to throw in a little forgiveness. When it veers too far into works, I add a dash of atonement/grace (still the only way to salvation, even after all that you can do). But I am not trying to change the ward or others, I am just trying to help create an environment where it is ok to think (or be) a little different.
As an example: In SS there was much discussion on the school sponsored “Day of Silence” and how horrible it was that the school was pushing gay rights on our kids. I raised my hand and talked about how my 5 yr old daughter had been teased by her cousins for adding ketchup to her beverage (she says she likes it, and she does drink it) and how that had hurt her feelings. I said that if I were a school administrator, I would see it as a bullying issue. That we, as a school, want to resist an environment where kids need to be afraid of people finding out that they like to drink ketchup, or are adopted, or “such and such” for fear of being bullied. I see it as a day to take a stand against bullying.
In my example, the teacher rephrased something in my comment to apply back to the lesson and we moved on. Sometimes people may want to contend differently and you won’t get the last word. I have learned to be comfortable with this. I said my piece in as non-confrontational a method as I could think of and then I can be content. Just the fact that I am there with a different perspective means it is ok to think differently. I don’t have to win any debates. I just have to contribute and thereby add balance to “the force.”
It does not always work out quit so well and I am ok giving other people the last word. If there is a particular know it all person who responds with a quote from a GA – I might even say, “what was your reference for that? Hmm, I guess that is something to think about.” Essentially, if their mind is made up and they aren’t going to budge then I am going to de-escalate the situation by pretending that they made their point and that I will consider it. No particular subject is important enough for me to martyr my social connections on a particular hillside. Make the “voice of reason” comment and if it isn’t well received, retreat and live to be the voice of reason for another day.
Old-Timer wrote:“I have a friend who once told me . . .”
This also can be an effective way of not personalizing the discussion. By putting less at stake in the initial comment there is less to be lost if you need to retreat.
For example there was once a discussion where a brother said in EQ that he believed the story of Noah to be more of a metaphor than a historical account – Then his SP got up and testified that Noah was a real person and that he really was eaten by a great fish. This poor bother was left to eat humble pie because he had committed himself openly to the position.
Old-Timer wrote:Nephite, activism is a two-edged sword. BOTH sides of any issue have “activists” – and the LDS Church and many of our fellow members functioned and continue to function as “activits” in the debate on same-sex marriage.
I mention that only to point out that calling one side “activists” without acknowledging that the other side are the exact same thing is not productive and is, at best, misleading and discriminatory – and that basic recognition can go a long way toward internal peace concerning lots of issues, since it understands that people working passionately to affect change in which they believe is not a bad thing, in and of itself. We are asked to do it all the time, so we can’t ask others not to do it without becoming hypocrites to some degree.
Yes, counter-activism has become necessary because “In recent years in the United States and other countries, a movement has emerged to promote same-sex marriage as an inherent or constitutional right. This is not a small step, but a radical change: instead of society tolerating or accepting private, consensual sexual behavior between adults,advocates of same-sex marriage seek its official endorsement and recognition. “…Because this question strikes at the very heart of the family, because it is one of the great moral issues of our time, and because it has the potential for great impact upon the family, the Church is speaking out on this issue, and
asking members to get involved…when governments presume to redefine the nature of marriage, issuing regulations to ensure public acceptance of non-traditional unions, they have moved a step closer to intervening in the sacred sphere of domestic life. The consequences of crossing this line are many and unpredictable, but likely would include an increase in the power and reach of the state toward whatever ends it seeks to pursue “…The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has chosen to become involved, along with many other churches, organizations, and individuals, in defending the sanctity of marriage between a man and a woman because it is a compelling moral issue of profound importance to our religion and to the future of our society.
“The final line in the Proclamation on the Family is an admonition to the world from the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve: ‘We call upon responsible citizens and officers of government everywhere to promote those measures designed to maintain and strengthen the family as the fundamental unit of society.’ This is the course charted by Church leaders, and it is the only course of safety for the Church and for the nation.”
You have a great conflict here. I second all of the previous advice. I would like to add one more thought, perspective. We tend to forget that this global religion functions differently depending on where you live. Many valiant, faithful, practicing members in east coast wards are very different in their politics from many valiant, faithful, practicing mid-west and west coast wards. If you add another ring to the circle, many wards in foreign lands have other issues outside of the church or culturally that they bring in. So yes we may all read from the BoM, encourage temple attendance, partake of the sacrament, and attend the same style of 3 hour block – we are not all cut the same way. I try to take a moment and process that quick thought as I sit in meetings, it helps me decide if I do have a relevant, necessary response. Often times I do, and more times than most, I really can contribute a helpful idea. In the past 2 weeks I’ve received positive responses to my comments that were “different”. Both of them came in the form of private phone calls after class.
Anyway – take a breath, try to re-imagine the church body in it’s larger form. It may help. I know it helps me.
AngryMormon, I am starting this comment with a response to Shawn, but what I say to him will address your post at the end. Please be patient. I don’t want to derail this thread and turn it into another thread about homosexuality and same-sex marriage. We need to confine that discussion in threads meant to discuss those issues. Without talking specifically about those exact issues, I do think it’s relevant to this thread to point out that we as a church can’t claim logically that we are a “counter-movement” to a prior “counter-movement” against something we supported from the beginning. That really isn’t aimed at the two issues we don’t need to discuss in this thread
:silent: (“those which must not be named” here?😆 ), since it has application to LOTS of things that cause dissonance and contribute to faith crises.A good example, I think, is our entire history regarding marriage definitions, without including same-sex marriage at all:
We started as a monogamous group. We then had polygamy as part of our marriage structures (plural, since most members never did practice polygamy. We then repudiated polygamy – first with a
:shh: , and then by actual enforcement. Finally, we now preach that marriage must be between one man and one woman – at least in this life, while leaving it open for there to be both monogamy and polygamy in the next life(letting God sort it out for us then).Which moment(s) in our history were we the counter-movement, and which moment(s) in our history were we the movement against which counter-movements were directed? Assigning proactive justification and reactive justification for actions is done all the time, by pretty much everyone, but it is interesting when the same people use both proactive and reactive justifications for different actions – based solely on whichever positioning works best for them at the time. Again, we all do it to some degree, but I find it fascinating to observe and study – and I try by doing so to recognize when I am doing it in my own life and knock it off. Assigning blame based on who offended first just isn’t productive, since it almost always turns into a cycle argument – and it’s impossible to say when a circular cycle started and who started it in many cases.
Anyway, directing that to this intro post, I think it’s important to recognize that we live in a community of diverse opinions and perspectives and to acknowledge that we give off signals just like those who see things differently do – and we say and do things that bother others, just like others say and do things that bother us – and we offend by our words or by our silence just like others do – and that we really aren’t any better or smarter or more enlightened in many ways than most of those who are sitting in the pews and chairs around us. We simply have found that what works for them doesn’t work for us and vice-versa.
We have to fight the tendency to hate and mock and belittle and dismiss others simply because of our differences. If those differences really are so damaging to us that we need to remove ourselves from them, that is one thing – but if those differences can be handled in productive ways without destroying friendship and fellowship, we need to “seek after these things” (be it through reorientation of our thoughts and actions, consultation with others in a forum like this, seeing a therapist or counselor of some kind, deeper immersion into spiritual things that work for us or anything else that helps us). We can’t let ourselves descend into bitterness and hatred, since those things, ultimately, only harm us and the people we love the most.
In the end, AM, my best advice is simple:
1) Breathe, deeply, literally, whenever you feel the emotions begin to roil. Deep breaths really do have a calming, cleansing effect.
2) Search for study and reading material that resonates with your soul and will help you find a faith orientation that can help you stay LDS without the current emotional tension.
3) Focus on service over doctrine. Help people without regard to their perspectives and lifestyles. Just be a servant for now.
4) Look for the good in you own life and in others. Focus on that and try to let the bad things wash over and roll off you.
5) Find a place and way to pray / meditate / ponder / whatever – somewhere that will allow you to “be still” and “recharge”.
6) Stick with it (that process) long enough to allow it to work for you, no matter how long that is.
7) Realize you aren’t alone and that others understand.
AngryMormon, I can definitely relate to how you are feeling. My major problem with life in the Church is the attitudes and behaviours of the members. I will not go into depth here but my non-LDS family and myself have been, and continue to be, treated extremely poorly by members (often individuals who hold leadership positions) sometimes to the point of active persecution. Over my 20 years of membership I have been slowly going crazy. About 7 months ago it all came to a head and I told my wife I just couldn’t deal with it anymore and needed a break. She agreed. I met with my Bishop and told him my situation. I informed him that I still had a testimony of the gospel but needed a break from the people. I said I would attend SM and support my wife in her calling, as well as support my children in the gospel (particularly my 12 year old son, who has had some challenges within his deacon’s quorum). I asked to be released from my calling and Home Teaching. He said yes to the first but no to the second. I told him that even if he would not release me, I would not do HT. Over the last few months I have slowly begun to mingle with some members. At first I would leave right after SM but now I hang out a little. I even tried HT one time (it didn’t go well but at least I tried).
My advice is to give yourself some space, focus on the gospel and (this is the hard part that I am still struggling with) work on forgiving the members for not being perfect, as none of us are. Seek out the positive aspects of individuals and try to ignore the negative (easier said than done, but it helps to try). This slowly, very slowly, becomes easier. Then as you start to feel better try to slowly increase your activity. I often think “forgive them, for they know not what they do”. I know the context is different but I honestly hope that they do not know how poorly they are acting.
As a school teacher I learned early on that if I only focused on the negative behaviours of students then I would develop a negative view of them. As such, I learned to “catch them being good” and as such developed positive views of my trouble makers. I think the members are the same. Try to catch them being Christlike and not catch them being the opposite.
I know it is hard and I am working on these things as well and have a long, long way to go before I feel 100% comfortable at church.
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