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I posted this to Reddit this morning. Thought I’d share here too: On Saturday evening, I went with my wife and kids, parents, and grandma to visit an aunt in a nursing home. They all know I’m out of the church, they’ve started to come to terms with it I think. While we’re there exchanging Christmas gifts, my aunt is in a lot of pain. She’s in her mid-50’s, has been diagnosed with rheumatoid arthritis and Parkinson’s. It’s progressed so fast and so severely that one of her nurses is convinced its ALS (though the neurologists she’s seen previously have never suggested it). She’s mid-50’s but looks older than her 84 year old mom. Her hands are nearly paralyzed, she can’t move her mouth when she speaks, and you can’t hear her across the room. Always in pain.
While we’re there, she relays through my mom that she would like my dad to give her a blessing. He’s TBM all the way, but even he knows that no blessing is going to help her. He obliges anyway, simply blessing her that her pain would subside and she would be able to sleep.
Before we leave, she starts crying from the pain. She tells my mom that she can’t sleep at night because it hurts so bad. My mom’s response? “Remember [dad] just gave you a blessing, you just need to have faith.” My mom is not a cruel person. I think she genuinely believes that with enough faith, my aunt’s pain would go away for the night. The problem is, my aunt is beyond a point where the placebo of faith is any real comfort.
What. The. Hell. This woman has had a tough life and been in pain for most of it. Her husband abandoned her when her kids were little and she raised them on her own. She’s suffered from the arthritis since she was in her early 30’s. She’s had more than a few blessings, really ramping up the last five years or so as she’s progressed to her current state. None of them have worked.
When I was a closeted unbeliever, she asked me for a blessing. I essentially told her that God loved her, he knows her pain, and that her time on the earth wasn’t over yet. She cried the rest of the day because she just wants her life to be over. That was almost two years ago.
It was on our drive home last night that my wife and I discussed this aunt’s place in the world. Both of us expressed that we hope she will leave this life soon to end her own suffering. There’s no reason to prolong her life. I understand now that the law in some states permitting medically assisted suicide
iscompassionate. I don’t want my aunt to be gone forever, but this isn’t about my discomfort with her eventual death, it’s about what’s right for her. This life is no longer beautiful or meaningful for her. It’s pain. Torturous, debilitating pain. The church’s stance on faith, blessings, end-of-life care, and assisted suicide bother me today more than they ever have. It’s actively inflicting additional and unnecessary pain on my aunt. I think it’s doing the same, though a much different kind of pain, to my mom, my grandmother, and everyone else that is witness to her suffering.
People who are dying need a form of comfort. That is the important thing even beyond healing IMHO. If we are to suffer we need something to take us through it. SamBee wrote:
People who are dying need a form of comfort. That is the important thing even beyond healing IMHO. If we are to suffer we need something to take us through it.
I agree that they need comfort. A blessing can give comfort. Telling someone that their pain will go away if they just have enough faith doesn’t give comfort. It sets them up to feel guilty when the pain isn’t lessened, the affliction doesn’t go away, and so on. Because now it’s their fault because they didn’t have enough faith.
Dad’s blessing wasn’t a blessing of healing, everyone knows that her affliction is terminal – eventually. But to say that her pain will go away if she just have faith – it’s cruel.
FWIW, I think our opposition to suicide is a recent, cultural ideology, rather than a long held religious one. What’s for certain, is it’s not mentioned as a sin in the bible. Some places, you could say even condone it, under certain circumstances. I think it’s important to do everything in our power to help those who are suffering get to a place where they can continue to enjoy life. I don’t think it helps anyone to believe if they simply pray and have faith they will be healed. We’ve seen this backfire not only with the chronically sick, the disabled, and the elderly, but with the LGBT community as well. No one is dealt a fair hand of cards, but this life is the only one we’ve been given. We’ve got to make the best of it, and do what we can to help those around us. But if someone, like your aunt, is at the point where life is needless suffering, and there’s no hope of recovery, I think it’d be far more cruel to force her to suffer, than to let her go on her own terms with dignity.
I know that’s not a popular opinion. I hope everyone who is suffering enough to entertain those sort of thoughts finds help and hope and recovers. But I agree she should have the freedom to choose. I do not think God would hold it against her.
dande48 wrote:
FWIW, I think our opposition to suicide is a recent, cultural ideology, rather than a long held religious one. What’s for certain, is it’s not mentioned as a sin in the bible. Some places, you could say even condone it, under certain circumstances.I think it’s important to do everything in our power to help those who are suffering get to a place where they can continue to enjoy life. I don’t think it helps anyone to believe if they simply pray and have faith they will be healed. We’ve seen this backfire not only with the chronically sick, the disabled, and the elderly, but with the LGBT community as well. No one is dealt a fair hand of cards, but this life is the only one we’ve been given. We’ve got to make the best of it, and do what we can to help those around us. But if someone, like your aunt, is at the point where life is needless suffering, and there’s no hope of recovery, I think it’d be far more cruel to force her to suffer, than to let her go on her own terms with dignity.
I know that’s not a popular opinion. I hope everyone who is suffering enough to entertain those sort of thoughts finds help and hope and recovers. But I agree she should have the freedom to choose. I do not think God would hold it against her.
Thank you. That pretty much sums up my opinion on the entire thing too.
Judas hangs himself after his betrayal – I think unfortunately that does point to a negative view in scripture. One of my favorite topics is, pain management. IMO there is nothing noble about letting patients suffer. There is medication that does control pain but addictive over time. In a setting like this, there is no reason not
to use it. There are very few Doctors or Nurse Practitioners who specialize in this field of medicine. So the
terminally ill have little to fall back on except faith.
Yes, morphine is like that. It’s also a behavior modifier, which means people can be unpleasant under the influence but it kills pain. I was going to mention pain medication. We live in the 21st Century. We should take advantage of that fact. God bless her – and I agree with the plea for us to quit citing faith as a cure for everything. Fwiw, Elder Holland has been very clear lately, multiple times, that faith alone can’t heal all ailments or issues. I wish, like so many things, that water would flow to the end of all rows in the Church – and outside it, as well.
She’s on a lot of pain meds. They are giving her as much as they can while keeping her heart beating and liver functioning. dande48 wrote:
FWIW, I think our opposition to suicide is a recent, cultural ideology, rather than a long held religious one. What’s for certain, is it’s not mentioned as a sin in the bible. Some places, you could say even condone it, under certain circumstances.I think it’s important to do everything in our power to help those who are suffering get to a place where they can continue to enjoy life. I don’t think it helps anyone to believe if they simply pray and have faith they will be healed. We’ve seen this backfire not only with the chronically sick, the disabled, and the elderly, but with the LGBT community as well. No one is dealt a fair hand of cards, but this life is the only one we’ve been given. We’ve got to make the best of it, and do what we can to help those around us. But if someone, like your aunt, is at the point where life is needless suffering, and there’s no hope of recovery, I think it’d be far more cruel to force her to suffer, than to let her go on her own terms with dignity.
I know that’s not a popular opinion. I hope everyone who is suffering enough to entertain those sort of thoughts finds help and hope and recovers. But I agree she should have the freedom to choose. I do not think God would hold it against her.
I agree about the cultural thing. My step-grandmother passed away peacefully under the Death with Dignity CA act in February 2018. I am grateful she had the opportunity to make decisions about her life and could transition out of this life on her own terms, not the terms of the health problems she faced and the vast amounts of medicine she was on. Since this act has been continually assaulted in the courts over the last 3 years, the window she had where it was legal was actually pretty small. What was surprising to me was that I had friends who are active in the church who also held the opinion that she could and should make and be honored for her end-of-life decisions. Equally surprising was the depth of unease some of my family members held about it that I was not aware of prior to discussions about it.
I wonder if in part, past cultures did not have to deal with these decisions because the diseases and other health conditions ended a person’s life instead of a person getting a choice in when and how to end their life. I think that nature killing people off sooner would contribute to the stigma surrounding end-of-life options because it would be a change in thinking, a shift from thinking it is outside a person’s control to a decision that a person fully needs to make. I also think that not having CSI level investigations blurred the lines between committing suicide and/or person assisted suicide (some homicides would fit the situation as well). The person/people dealing with the fallout of a specific person no longer living could frame the narrative differently without additional contest – for both good or ill actually.
AmyJ wrote:
I wonder if in part, past cultures did not have to deal with these decisions because the diseases and other health conditions ended a person’s life instead of a person getting a choice in when and how to end their life.
To an extinct, maybe, but it’s been a hot topic over the past couple thousand years. In many ancient cultures, suicide was advocated as a way to overcome extreme shame and guilt, or to avoid “fates worse than death. There was the honor code of Japan. King Saul killed himself to avoid capture, as well as his armor-barer. Abimelech, king of Israel, killed himself, so that he technically wouldn’t be killed by a woman. Greece was very accepting of euthanasia, and suicide in general. Plato was for it, and Pythagoras was against it. In the middle ages, Europe became extremely against it, though during the Enlightenment it became more accepted.
Here’s a quote from Sir Thomas More, in his book “Utopia”:
Quote:I have already related to you with what care they look after their sick, so that nothing is left undone which may contribute either to their health or ease. And as for those who are afflicted with incurable disorders, they use all possible means of cherishing them, and of making their lives as comfortable as possible; they visit them often, and take great pains to make their time pass easily. But if any have torturing, lingering pain, without hope of recovery or ease, the priests and magistrates repair to them and exhort them, since they are unable to proceed with the business of life, are become a burden to themselves and all about them, and have in reality outlived themselves, they should no longer cherish a rooted disease, but choose to die since they cannot live but in great misery; being persuaded, if they thus deliver themselves from torture, or allow others to do it, they shall be happy after death. Since they forfeit none of the pleasures, but only the troubles of life by this, they think they not only act reasonably, but consistently with religion; for they follow the advice of their priests, the expounders of God’s will.
Also, here’s an interesting question: Did Jesus kill himself? Specifically, did He kill himself to end our sufferings?
dande48 wrote:
Also, here’s an interesting question: Did Jesus kill himself? Specifically, did He kill himself to end our sufferings?
Interesting question. I suppose that traditional believers would argue that Jesus died by accepting the will of the Father whereas individuals that commit suicide die by taking matters into their own hands – thus rejecting God’s timeline.Back to the OP, I believe that religion can be used as both a comfort and a defense. Religion at it’s best is used when we seek to provide comfort for another persons pain. Ideally, we should let the person in sorrow to take the lead in what type of “comfort” would be most helpful. Do they want a sermon or do they want someone to listen to their pain? I believe that if a person in suffering asks for a priesthood blessing that it can be an act of kindness to provide one (even if you are not sure that you believe in the priesthood).
I also believe that religion can be used as a defense. Many people are highly uncomfortable with the topics of suffering, death, and dying. These people may use religion as a protection to avoid fully connecting with death. They may use religion to help lift the spirits of the person in suffering, perhaps thinking to themselves that if the suffering individual just had enough faith in the religious stories then they would not hurt so much. To me that can be very unhelpful for someone that is wrestling with death. It can be like saying, “I cannot walk with you along this path of sorrow because it is too scary for me. Perhaps you could walk with me along my path of religious certitude?”.
The worst cases of religion as a defense is when we shame or guilt those suffering for not handling their situation with more faith. I believe this happens because we are defending ourselves from their pain. It makes us uncomfortable to grapple with our own mortality and loss of control over our lives.
I read an account where a young family lost a child in death. The young, relatively inexperienced, but certainly enthusiastic minister of this family’s church came over right away and told the family to rejoice and celebrate because the child had been “saved” and is now safely with Jesus. The minister felt that he was helping the family to process the loss with faith and that his doctrine was sound. The family was deeply offended.
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