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Dax, I’ve heard this speculation before & I agree, speculation is never doctrine. Quote:My visiting teacher today informed me that she was looking forward to the time when she would be less prideful and accept god’s will. She then went on to tell me that she hoped she would be able to accomplish this before she died because she would have to be supportive when her husband married other women in the celestial kingdom.
There are people in the church who have difficulty living life one day at a time. Instead, they speculate & tell others what is going to happen in the next life.
As though they have special direct knowledge or insight.
I like what wayfarer said:
Quote:i remember the wife of my stake president shocked me by saying, “there are going to be a lot of surprises up there…”
i am convinced we have no clue as to what lies beyond.
I have always believed this too.
If anyone every tries this with me I will do the following:
1. Ask for a current source for their information.
2. Don’t give me any teachings that can’t be backed up with current scriptural references.
3. Tell them to be careful who they tell this to. It could be interpreted as promoting polygamy.
4. If they continue, ask for a different HT or VT.
Mike from Milton.
wayfarer wrote:Perhaps faith boils down to “trust”. Not trust in the arm of flesh, of earthly leaders, but rather in a god of infinite, unconditional love.
Wayfarer – I like that.
I have had my issues in the past, I have made troubling discoveries in church History, and of flawed opinions of leaders…. but God through what can only be described as divine communication has told me this is where I am supposed to be and has implied to me that it is at some level his Church where his Gospel is taught in it’s most pure form. perfect…. not a chance, but then again he never claimed his church was perfect either.
it seems to me that ‘fulness’, and even the word ‘perfect’ mean complete and sufficient, not flawless. The lord’s standard of perfection is different than ours. We read in Matthew 5:48, “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your father in heaven is perfect”, and sometimes we think, we need to do that of ourselves. But I would ask, “What is the ‘therefore’ there, for”? Simply put, the ‘therefore’ means we MUST look at the context in order to interpret 5:48. Looking back just a couple of verses, we read the following
Matthew 5:44-45 wrote:I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
The term ‘perfect’ is the King James translation of ‘teleios’, meaning “complete, full, finished, of age.” In this case, the writer of matthew is showing that being good to just those whom you like is being ‘partial’ to them. The term ‘perfect’ here then is meant to be ‘impartial’… Jesus is comparing how the sun and the rain provide equal sustenance to all. God is complete in his grace, to give us all sunshine and rain — god, and he uses the term ‘Father’ here — loves us equally and unconditionally — as any father would his child. God is ‘impartial’…’no respecter of persons’, but in fact, benevolent to all, especially the unworthy, the sinner.Because we LDS have a distorted view of perfection, we think that the church of god must be without any flaws, that our leaders must be flawless, that the lord will never allow the prophet to lead us astray. We even get to the point that we think it’s all or nothing. Boyd K Packer’s “Mantle greater than the intellect” sermon instructed CES teachers that they must teach that god has had his hand in every aspect of the church and kingdom from the beginning. As we become indoctrinated with the wrong definition of ‘perfection’, we go astray in the church.
Having a perfectly flawless world or church organization is not God’s plan of salvation for us. We learn line upon line and precept upon precept. Yes, there was a plan proposed in the premortal existence that provided for perfection — as in flawlessness — in everything. That wasn’t the lord’s plan. The Lord’s plan was that we would come here to this life, make free choices, and learn from our own experience to distinguish good from evil. Such a plan of learning is messy — people are going to make mistakes. Everyone makes mistakes.
The Lord’s standard of perfection is perfectly abiding unconditional love, not flawless performance.
We honor Joseph Smith, Brigham Young as prophets of god, and that we have a prophet today in Thomas S. Monson. Yet they were and are human. Does the fact that they are prophet exempt them from the plan of Salvation? Did they make mistakes? YES they did. This shouldn’t be a problem. We should celebrate their humanity, along with our own.
When we learn that ‘perfect’, according to the Lord’s definition, is being whole and complete, one with our brothers and sisters in love, and not the false standard of flawlessness, I think we’ll be much more on our way toward establishing Zion.
wayfarer wrote:i remember the wife of my stake president shocked me by saying, “there are going to be a lot of surprises up there…”
i am convinced we have no clue as to what lies beyond.
Love this quote and fully believe it…
This may muddy the waters a little bit but it also may explain some things. Like was said in an earlier reply, it used to be taught but now isn’t. That is true, but in the interest of full disclosure: men can still be sealed to multiple women in the temple (if the 1st wife passed away) but women cannot be sealed to multiple men (if the 1st husband passed away).
The idea is probably a reminant of teachings from decades ago and my take is that the “brethren” tend to think it will all be sorted out in the hereafter. But it’s not unreasonable for members of the church to infer that polygamy is still ‘doctrinal’ given the contradictory positions of the official declarations vs. temple sealings today. I know a man sealed to two women who is quite pleased with himself because of it.
roadrunner, just for the sake of precision, women CANbe sealed to multiple men. After they die, they can be sealed to every husband they had in mortality – and it’s done regularly. We tend to think we see clearly, but I believe we will be amazed when we finally get celestial prescriptions and recognize how bad our mortal eyesight really was (he says as he squints at the computer screen while not wearing his glasses).
Old-Timer wrote:roadrunner, just for the sake of precision, women
CANbe sealed to multiple men. After they die, they can be sealed to every husband they had in mortality – and it’s done regularly. Ray, thank you for the clarification / correction. I’m glad you pointed it out and of course you are correct. I actually think this backs up the point that the doctrine of polygamy – or its disavowal – could be made more clear. As it stands, one can conceivably believe that the church still endorses polygamy and possibly polyandry. However, I do not think that’s the intent of the church…
To further add to my post, a widower can be sealed to his wife(s) who have passed away and to one alive wife. That’s not the case for women who can be sealed to multiple husbands only after she and they have passed away.
One of the conference speakers said something to the effect of this: If you read things that have been said by past prophets that does not seem to fit with what we believe today, remember that they were imperfect men. I wish I could give the actual quote and tell you who said it, but i know that it definitely answered a question i had just recently been thinking about. Another thing i really like to remember is this—-we have FINITE minds and it is impossible for us to understand INFINITE principles, no matter how hard we try—-I’m not saying that polygamy is an infinite principle, but i do think there are probably a lot of things that we are just not capable of understanding during this mortal life. I prefer not to dwell on them and drive myself nuts. I remember when my Mother was going to be sealed to my step-father, after going through the process of having the sealing to my father broken (not sure if that is the correct term) Someone told me i was going to have to choose who I wanted to be sealed to—talk about a good way to upset a 14 yr old girl. Fortunately, someone corrected that false teaching. I can’t remember what i was told that made me feel better, but I know it is something that doesn’t concern me anymore. There are a lot of things that I think will be sorted out in ways we cannot understand..
As far as my personal feelings on polygamy, if it is really something we are supposed to live in the next life, I figure that God is going to have to perfect me on that one—’cause there is no way my finite brain can wrap itself around sharing my husband
and Brigham Young is my 4x great uncle.Perhaps momto11, you are thinking of this quote:
Quote:A few question their faith when they find a statement made by a Church leader decades ago that seems incongruent with our doctrine. There is an important principle that governs the doctrine of the Church. The doctrine is taught by all 15 members of the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve. It is not hidden in an obscure paragraph of one talk. True principles are taught frequently and by many. Our doctrine is not difficult to find.
The leaders of the Church are honest but imperfect men. Remember the words of Moroni: “Condemn me not because of mine imperfection, neither my father … ; but rather give thanks unto God that he hath made manifest unto you our imperfections, that ye may learn to be more wise than we have been.”
Joseph Smith said, “I never told you I was perfect; but there is no error in the revelations.” The miracle of God’s hand in the history and destiny of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is understood only through the lens of spiritual inquiry. President Ezra Taft Benson said, “Every [person] eventually is backed up to the wall of faith, and there … must make his stand.” Don’t be surprised when it happens to you!
–Trial of Your FaithIts a good talk, I think. While I’m not sure I can completely agree that “Our doctrine is not difficult to find” … as sometimes I do find it hard to nail the jello to the wall on what is and is not doctrine in our church, in general, I think the topics like Polygamy in heaven do not get taught, repeated, and confirmed as doctrine in our church.
Instead, there are quotes by some prior leaders, and as Elder Andersen teaches us, they are imperfect leaders doing the best they can with what they have.
Polygamy in heaven may be taught by some, but it is not doctrine that all members must believe or leave the church over it. You have a choice based on how it feels to you whether you accept it as truth or not. It is sure to be a trial of faith for some, and it is unfortunate to me that some women are burdened with such teachings and feel they have to carry that teaching or be unfaithful daughters of God.
I teach my daughters they should never feel less than a man in any way. Marriage should always be an equal partnership. And when my daughter came to me with the concern of eternal polygamy, I told her she does not have to believe it. I don’t.
Maybe we should be married to several people in life, and thendecide whether we want to spend eternity with any just before we die! Heber—that was the one!!! Quote:While The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints has officially rejected polygamy, the Brown family openly continues with the practice.
Saw this quote on Huffpost and felt that it wasn’t quite accurate or that it was at least an oversimplification. As the OP details, we haven’t quite rejected theoretical polygamy as an institution but we have strongly rejected the practice of polygamy in the here and now (which is possibly all that Huffpost cares about). OTOH, it might have been nice for the Huffpost guys to include that the LDS discontinued the practice over a century ago instead of leaving the timeline open.
wayfarer wrote:it seems to me that ‘fulness’, and even the word ‘perfect’ mean complete and sufficient, not flawless.
The lord’s standard of perfection is different than ours. We read in Matthew 5:48, “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your father in heaven is perfect”, and sometimes we think, we need to do that of ourselves. But I would ask, “What is the ‘therefore’ there, for”? Simply put, the ‘therefore’ means we MUST look at the context in order to interpret 5:48. Looking back just a couple of verses, we read the following
Matthew 5:44-45 wrote:I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
The term ‘perfect’ is the King James translation of ‘teleios’, meaning “complete, full, finished, of age.” In this case, the writer of matthew is showing that being good to just those whom you like is being ‘partial’ to them. The term ‘perfect’ here then is meant to be ‘impartial’… Jesus is comparing how the sun and the rain provide equal sustenance to all. God is complete in his grace, to give us all sunshine and rain — god, and he uses the term ‘Father’ here — loves us equally and unconditionally — as any father would his child. God is ‘impartial’…’no respecter of persons’, but in fact, benevolent to all, especially the unworthy, the sinner.Because we LDS have a distorted view of perfection, we think that the church of god must be without any flaws, that our leaders must be flawless, that the lord will never allow the prophet to lead us astray. We even get to the point that we think it’s all or nothing. Boyd K Packer’s “Mantle greater than the intellect” sermon instructed CES teachers that they must teach that god has had his hand in every aspect of the church and kingdom from the beginning. As we become indoctrinated with the wrong definition of ‘perfection’, we go astray in the church.
Having a perfectly flawless world or church organization is not God’s plan of salvation for us. We learn line upon line and precept upon precept. Yes, there was a plan proposed in the premortal existence that provided for perfection — as in flawlessness — in everything. That wasn’t the lord’s plan. The Lord’s plan was that we would come here to this life, make free choices, and learn from our own experience to distinguish good from evil. Such a plan of learning is messy — people are going to make mistakes. Everyone makes mistakes.
The Lord’s standard of perfection is perfectly abiding unconditional love, not flawless performance.
We honor Joseph Smith, Brigham Young as prophets of god, and that we have a prophet today in Thomas S. Monson. Yet they were and are human. Does the fact that they are prophet exempt them from the plan of Salvation? Did they make mistakes? YES they did. This shouldn’t be a problem. We should celebrate their humanity, along with our own.
When we learn that ‘perfect’, according to the Lord’s definition, is being whole and complete, one with our brothers and sisters in love, and not the false standard of flawlessness, I think we’ll be much more on our way toward establishing Zion.
I agree with your definition. I would boil it down to saying that we learn not to judge, or in others words, to place one person above or below another in importance.Polygamy troubled me for many years because I believed that we would be practicing it in the celestial kingdom and it seemed so unfair. A while back, I found that I could not put my questions about it to rest. I prayed many times to gain understanding so I could accept it, but the Lord had other things in mind. He led me to understand the truth about the celestial order of marriage. I don’t share it freely because it is so strange to us that most people don’t accept it, however, I will testify that it is beautiful, fair to both sexes, and resolves all problems. If any is interested in learning this principle, I recommend praying fervently that the Lord will prepare your heart to receive it and doing all you can to love your spouse and others around you perfectly.
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