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I have discovered that some of the things I grew up believing are not church doctrine. i think part of this comes from growing up and feeling like it was wrong to question anything about the church—i don’t think anyone ever told me it was wrong, somehow i just felt that way. Now, I don’t necessarily question, but i have a tendency to be the person in relief society that gives the reality answers instead of the basic, read your scriptures, say your prayers, keep the commandments and have a testimony. I begin to wonder if i am getting a reputation—I walked out of the lesson on the word of wisdom on sunday—i was so frustrated with what the teacher was saying about RX medications and addiction. i take more meds than I would like to—and they are controlled substances–i tried to explain the difference between addiction and dependency—I think I was the only person in the room who was actually giving a comment based on experience and research—the teacher said “her sister” says you have to be really careful about these medications. I told her what I knew about them—I don’t think she even acknowledged what I said but went on to say that there were 5 couples in her old ward that were breaking up over RX addiction. I had tried to explain that very few people who have chronic pain get addicted unless they already have addictive tendencies. Dependency and tolerance of the medications are just part of the nature of the beast—-and, of course, you can also be dependent on medications that are not controlled substances, plus—anyone ever try dropping an anti-depressant cold turkey—talk about withdrawals–and they are not considered addictive–they don’t even say you can become dependent on them. I turned to the lady next to me and said,”I can’t stay in here.” I got up and walked out and swung the door shut behind me—I think it closed a little harder than i meant for it to. I didn’t return to play the closing song.
i really came unglued the day that someone said that depression was a tool of the devil. I told them that it is NOT a tool of the devil–and i just happened to have a church statement in my scripture bag on depression and told them i felt the need to read it–I practically choked up as i read it–but it definitely told them the church’s stand on this issue and let them know that the comment was wrong. I think they didn’t know quite what to say, so said,”maybe it is how you react to it,” to which i pointed out that you don’t always have control over how you react to it.
After the meeting the stake lady came up and said somethingto me–can’t remember what–then another lady came up and said she thought i needed a hug—please don’t be condescending, instead try acknowledging that I knew what I was talking about—especially since i read the church statement on it!!!!!!
Right before sacrament meeting started, a lady in my ward came up behind me and quietly told me that she was so glad that I had made that comment about depression because she has been dealing with depression for years. Obviously there was someone in there that needed to hear what I had to say.
Why does relief society make me feel so bad?? My newly married daughter told me that lots of women hate relief society. I didn’t used to hate it.
welcome… you have 11 kids? wow. as with all lay organizations, amateurs run the local churches, and unfortunately, people speculate, making crap up and passing it off as doctrine. ’tis a tradition going back to joseph smith.
the alternative is “correlation”: standardized pablum taught as “the truth”.
there are no easy answers…but i would have walked out too.
Fortunately, we can speak from our own experiences; unfortunately, we can speak from our own experiences. Sometimes, speaking up is the best thing to do; sometimes, walking out is the best thing to do.
Opposition in all things is a wonderful concept; opposition in all things can be a difficult trial.
Gotta love those paradoxes.
Welcome – and thanks for the introduction.
Old-Timer wrote:Fortunately, we can speak from our own experiences; unfortunately, we can speak from our own experiences.
+1
My mother is a convert to the Church. She grew up in a Baptist household, and was active in that faith until her early 20s, when she went LDS. She says, even to this day, that the one thing she really misses from her Baptist faith is the quality of the instruction and preaching. She had a professional pastor who thoughtfully and carefully prepared a sermon every week, and he delivered it well. He’d been to Bible college and knew the NT inside out. He taught Sunday School with a deep knowledge of the subject matter. My mom wistfully reflects on the high quality of those sermons and lessons.
In the LDS Church, we obviously rely on a lay clergy all the way up to the GA level, which often means that we have lots of people speaking in Sac Mtg, teacing Sunday School or Relief Society, or instructing quorums that really have very little knowledge of the subject matter, no training or experience in teaching, a palpable fear of public speaking, and a very thin grasp of how the real world operates. In that environment, it seems a miracle that we don’t have more examples of what you experienced.
The only system worse that the one we’ve got now is the other option – a paid clergy.
The new handbook says that if someone is teaching false doctrine, the the person in authority is supposed to correct it–or stop them–something to that effect. I sat in a RS lesson on Prayer. The lady was using something from an unapproved source. When she got to a part that said something about the universe and everything that vibrates—it just didn’t FEEL right. I went home and did a little research–then came back to Sacrament meeting and spent the whole time searching the scriptures to see what they said—this lady was teaching false doctrine.
Later in the week, it was still bothering me so much that I finally called one of the counselors and asked her what she had thought of the lesson—-she had been oblivious to what had been said—I told her it was false doctrine. She told me she was sorry that I had been bothered by it—-it doesn’t matter whether or not I was bothered by it–what mattered to me was that it was wrong and no one else seemed to realize it. One lady had even commented during class that “it is amazing what can get lost in translation.”
Especially when the translation is wrong!!!!!I heard later that the presidency reminded all the teachers that they were not to use anything in their lessons except approved materials. I guess speaking up when something is wrong can help to correct misconceptions—-I just wish someone else would do it besides me!!
momto11 wrote:The new handbook says that if someone is teaching false doctrine, the the person in authority is supposed to correct it–or stop them–something to that effect.
I sat in a RS lesson on Prayer. The lady was using something from an unapproved source. When she got to a part that said something about the universe and everything that vibrates—it just didn’t FEEL right. I went home and did a little research–then came back to Sacrament meeting and spent the whole time searching the scriptures to see what they said—this lady was teaching false doctrine.
Later in the week, it was still bothering me so much that I finally called one of the counselors and asked her what she had thought of the lesson—-she had been oblivious to what had been said—I told her it was false doctrine. She told me she was sorry that I had been bothered by it—-it doesn’t matter whether or not I was bothered by it–what mattered to me was that it was wrong and no one else seemed to realize it. One lady had even commented during class that “it is amazing what can get lost in translation.”
Especially when the translation is wrong!!!!!I heard later that the presidency reminded all the teachers that they were not to use anything in their lessons except approved materials. I guess speaking up when something is wrong can help to correct misconceptions—-I just wish someone else would do it besides me!!
That the universe vibrates is not so much ‘false doctrine’, but it isn’t ‘taught’ in the LDS church, and therefore is inappropriate in a church setting.Let me explain: The church has a set of speculations around unknowable things. These speculations come from LDS scripture and often the off-the-cuff comments by leaders from the beginning. The term “Doctrine” means “what is taught”. It does not mean “what is true”. There is an important difference. When we agree (a definition of ‘faith’) to be part of the church, we also agree to go along with ‘what is taught’ — in other words, to teach out of the manuals and using the words of approved teachings/doctrine.
Importantly, we can come to our own conclusions as to what is ‘true’. What is taught/church doctrrine/ may well be just the ‘milk’ that really doesn’t embody all truth. We are not supposed to teach beyond what is taught, especially about unknowable things. While this may not satisfy those of us whose understanding goes well byond milk, it is what we agree to do.
Walk out of a lesson.
Speak up with an alternative perspective.
Be silent and let people have their moment undisturbed.
I have also done all those things in church classes. There’s no single right answer. I stood up to the Stake President once who was visiting our ward and teaching a combined priesthood class. I have sat silent when a brother or sister was sharing something important, even if I didn’t agree. I rarely walk out, but have done that 2 or 3 times in my life.
They are all noble responses. They can all be mistakes too. I don’t always get it right. I got really upset once in an EQ lesson about the role of women, and spoke out vigorously, and pretty much lost my cool, only to find out that I had misunderstood a quote from a conference talk. I had been blinded by my strong emotions. I apologized.
Many times also though, people come up and thank me for saying something because they had been silently suffering and didn’t feel they could say it themselves.
Momto11 – hang in there. You’re doing a good thing by commenting and giving heartfelt, true-to-yourself responses. My guess is that there are more people that appreciate your responses than you know. I hope you continue to participate and hold the teachers feet to the fire. It’s difficult for me to correct teachers, and it probably is for most of us. I’ve found that if I can state something in a well reasoned, non-emotional way (even though my heart is pounding and I want to yell) that people sometimes respond well. And sometimes they act like I didn’t say anything at all. I also try to keep in mind that the teacher is probably doing his or her best and is usually well intentioned, although that’s little consolation if the teaching is painful. Sometimes I also try to remind myself that as long as I go to church there will be speakers, teachers, and leaders that are ignorant. After all, nobody’s perfect and some are less perfect than others.
Depression in particular seems to be misunderstood in the church. My wife was diagnosed with depression and only after going through a visible marital rough patch did her mom decide to tell us that depression is prevalent in the family and that several people in the family are taking medication for it. My own parents told us we should basically grin and bear the depression so my wife wouldn’t have to take the meds. It all really upsets me and I feel for you. This type of teaching is completely out of place – and worse – is potentially dangerous. I’m glad you said something.
Just a little more info on the lesson i felt was false doctrine. The lesson was on prayer and the teacher used the Lord’s prayer as an example–but she put a lot of effort into teaching about the amaraic (SP?) interpretation of the Lord’s prayer. I asked why amaraic, and was told that it is the closest interpretation that we have. I did not know any different—so i listened. She had gone to more effort for this part of the lesson by making word strips of the Lord’s prayer and then word strips of what the amaraic interpretation was. It came across as mysticism to me–and it felt WRONG. I went home during sunday school and looked up amaraic interpretations of the Lord’s prayer—and found whole bunch of them—and every one was different. I found a christian lady’s site (non-LDS) and her feeling of amaraic interpretations of the Lord’s prayer was also that it was mysticism. I learned that there are about 16 different dialects of amaraic and that non of them can understand each other.
During sacrament meeting, I searched my scriptures trying to understand a little more about the amaraic language—after all, she had said it was the closest interpretation that we have.
I learned that Christ probably spoke a Galilean for of amaraic, the bible dictionary also mentioned a western amaraic. I also learned that very little of the bible was written in amaraic. The Lord’s prayer in the bible had a foot note with the JS translation—and only a slight bit of wording was changed.
The most important thing I learned, though, was that the Lord’s Prayer is in the Book of Mormon, also—and it’s wording is really close to what it is in the Bible—-So what is in the B of M would be considered the most accurate translation if we believe that the B of M is true.
One more thing—-I visited with my bishop the tuesday after I had walked out of relief society. At some point in our discussion about making comments in class—I’m pretty sure he told me to sit on my hands—-basically—i got the feeling he was telling me not to make comments in class. Frankly, this is a good example of when to interject something that you really like – an interpretation that resonates with you, if you feel like you need to add a comment. Generally, in any setting (church, business, school, etc.) people react much, much better to, “I love to look at various interpretations of things. My own favorite interpretation of the Lord’s Prayer is . . .” than to, “That’s crap and false doctrine. The following version is the best (or one true) interpretation.” Also, by reinforcing the point that it’s OK to look at alternative interpretations, you are establishing something that might take off in that class or others – that it’s OK to share something that is a bit (or radically) different than someone else.
I went to RS on Sunday–and actually enjoyed it–and I still made comments. A lady that has been coming with her daughter came up to me after class and asked me about something I had said and wanted some information. After we visisted for a few minutes, she told me that she knew there was a reason she had come to our ward that day—-I guess some of my comments are meant to be said, because more than once, someone has needed to hear what I had to say
I have value after all!!!LOL!!!@momto11- You are my hero, I have to say you put people straight when they are feeding falsehoods or their own opinion. I do this myself sometimes, and people get taken aback, but we were told by Pres. Hinckley to Stand for Something. If we don’t stand up for the truth or our own genuine experience of things, then what is the point? I don’t like it when people use the Church lessons and their callings as teachers in the church as a bully pulpit or soap box. I respect those who do take a side note of IMO, or I had an experience with such and such. These things don’t bother me, it is just those that think they are holier than thou and think they Know it all, really bug me. Such people as these deserve to be put in their place when they over step their bounds, or they don’t have authority to speak on something they have no clue about.
Quote:those that think they are holier than thou and think they Know it all, really bug me.
They know they’re right; you know they’re wrong. Chances are both are right and both are wrong, depending on the application.
Just something to consider.
In Improv classes, there is a rule – you accept whatever the other players do and you don’t contradict them. You can redirect them, but you “go with the flow” rather than breaking the group’s energy. Some people use the phrase, “Yes, and . . . ” instead of “Yes, but . . . ” or “No . . . ” I’m not sure it’s right, but it is easier when you are talking about RS for some reason! We had a bit of a smack down a couple weeks ago in RS. A student asked “What do you do when you are trying to do your calling but you disagree with the bishop or other leaders about how to do it?” A sister raised her hand and trotted out the old line about leaders never leading us astray and that if you just do what you’re told you’ll be OK. The first sister immediately and confidently shot back: “I don’t believe that.” And then about 3-5 other sisters also said they didn’t believe that because people are human beings, and we all make mistakes. It turned into a discussion about personal revelation, and that there are exceptions to every rule, and we all are entitled to obtain our own personal answers, not just to march in line and conform. Another sister said that when Pres. Hinckley told the mothers to all stop working, she was heart broken because she was studying at Harvard. Then she prayed for her own revelation, and she knew that her path was different. I enjoyed her comment because I had the same experience. It was really a great discussion. But it would never have happened if everyone sat on their hands when the sister said essentially that when the brethren speak the thinking is done.
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