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I may be choosing badly, but I’m going to post this openly and try to tone down the ranting I would do privately. My daughter is a first semester freshman at a large state school with a big Institute program in the Mormon corridor. She’s a good kid (4.0 student, seminary graduate, fwiw) whose testimony has taken some hits this last year. But she’s soldiering on. If there was a Jr. StayLDS, she’d fit right in.
The teacher in tonight’s class solicited “trials of faith” from the students. One girl said – polygamy. Then (this is paraphrasing, but it was pretty fresh in her mind), “I went to the scriptures and the doctrine is right there in Section 132. I know it’ll come back again and it must be there for a reason. I’ve accepted it and am willing to do it in the future.”
The teacher: “Yup, understanding the doctrine is key.”
My daughter didn’t say anything and left class a little early. I’m afraid she’s going to not say anything and just leave the church a little early. She wasn’t unglued, but it’s just another weight on the scale. (I think she thought she’d be done with this kind of talk after her ward seminary teacher told her this spring that God commanded polygamy. In that instance she did speak up and say that Sarah gave Hagar to Abraham according to custom.)
I’m on the ledge. This is wrong!
DH and I have had this talk. Too many times. DH — Because Old Testament had polygamy
Me — Where does it state God commanded it in the OT?
DH — JS was trying to bring back everything that was in the OT.
Me — So why not bring back all the health laws? Polygamy was self serving.
DH — Polygamy served a purpose to separate the church into an entity very different from mainstream culture. It allowed a separate cultural identity to be created fast.
Me — It branded the church as a cult.
DH — Polygamy serves no purpose today
Me — Suggest it, and you can go get a different FIRST wife.
DH — JS didn’t really sleep with everyone he married. He sealed all kinds of people together. It was more spiritual in nature. And DNA studies state he didn’t have children with anyone but Emma.
Me — If it was so spiritual, how come he hid it from his wife?
DH — Many of the wives were only sealed to him after his death. They lied in court in order to get land back. The church did that so that they could fight Emma for church assets that were in JS’s name.
Me — So the church lied in court in order to take resources from Emma? How is that supposed to make me feel better?
DH — God told JS to start polygamy
Me — the church needs to decide if they believe in polygamy or not. They cannot outlaw it, and then say we believe in it. They need make a choice.
Me — Section 132 needs to be de-canonized and removed.
DH — But the Lord told JS to start it. It was correct for that time.
Me — Women and girls were traded and negotiated. There was very little spiritual about it. It was wrong.
DH — There is always someone who will be inappropriate.
Me –They were all inappropriate.
Repeat the above until you are dizzy and want to dry heave.
DH does understand if he decides on polygamy, I am out the door and taking his left testicle with me.
I don’t care a wit about Abraham anymore, or Joseph Smith or Brigham Young. But I can’t stay in a church that is actively or passively teaching polygamy to my kids. I can’t.
Am I an apostate if I decide to openly speak against this kind of teaching and conditioning?
Well, until the Church makes a statement to the contrary, polygamy is “doctrine”… by revelation (D&C 132). In a way, I prefer that it be out there in the discussion, because for too long it has been a hush-hush kind of doctrine. I think talking about it openly, even as doctrine, will continue to force the issue and I think the younger generation will be increasingly not OK with it. What I find most disturbing is the young woman in the class saying that it will come back someday and that she is willing. These kinds of “trials of faith” wherein God sets up an impossible situation and commands us to obey in spite of our principles (Abraham’s willingness to sacrifice Isaac, God commanding the Israelites to “annihilate” every man, woman and child… and animals of the Canaanites, Nephi killing the helpless Laban at God’s direction, Hosea being commanded to marry the prostitute Gomer, Heber C and Violate Kimball accepting the proposal of JS, countless girls and their families accepting marriage into polygamy, Mormons who were convinced by local Church leaders to participate in the Mountain Meadows Massacre, excluding black people from the temple) do not make sense to me. I cannot get behind a God who would want us to check our conscience at the door in order to show devotion to Him.
Jesus’ teachings are reported to have been pretty much the polar opposite of this: set aside your inhibitions to do the right thing. He taught that we should turn the other cheek, go the extra mile, treat strangers from groups that we don’t like as if they were our friends, that we should do to others as we would have them do to us, that we should sell all our possessions and give to the poor, forgive all trespasses, pray for those who persecute, and love enemies. And those are merely his words. In deeds, he practiced what he preached. It is said that he forgave the woman taken in adultery, that he cavorted with sinners and tax collectors, that he went on to Jerusalem in spite of certain death, that he submitted willingly to arrest instead of resisting with violence, and that at the end, he prayed, “Father forgive them, for they know not what they do.” That’s the kind of God I could get behind.
This was my original problem with the church when I was 17. We were doing the Church History and D&C that year. I spoke up and said I didn’t believe polygamy was right. The teacher (my friend’s mom) said I couldn’t be Mormon if I didn’t believe in polygamy and she said it would be much better to be a second wife in a good marriage than an only wife in a bad one (like those are the alternatives). I didn’t accept it then and I don’t accept it now. Unlike her I have no polygamous ancestors to justify. Although her words drove me out for a couple years I still had my own testimony of things. Just never that. I gradually told myself that since it doesn’t apply to me I can ignore it. I’m not entitled to a revelation on something that’s irrelevant to me anyway. But I honestly have no ability to believe it was ever a moral practice. Every feeling says otherwise. I’m with amateur parent.
My 15 yo DD came to me last year. She was struggling with seminary and their study of the D&C. She was really concerned about how I, her mom, would react. I told her that I wanted her to continue to attend. I felt she needed to learn the history and doctrine, but that there were things in the D & C that I personally had some problem with .. And I thought it was great that she was making up her own mind. She was so relieved.
She continued to attend, participated in all their discussions, and bluntly refused to read all of the D & C. The teacher contacted me. I told him that DD knew her mind on this topic and her parents were supporting her decisions.
Result: she had perfect attendance, she participated, but she was only given a “certificate of attendance” rather than credit for the seminary class. DD was in private school which was willing to count seminary as a class .. And seminary teacher knew we were planning to apply for the credit. So a few pages short of full reading of D & C meant no credit for the class. It also meant a huge smile from DD as she felt her parents were behind her well-thought out decisions.
This year, she is away at college, and she has arranged on her own to attend seminary. OT is a subject she would like more information on.
I don’t know what I would do if she blindly followed, or if she announced that polygamy was a good thing. Wonder where MY child went?
A student saying she is willing to live it hits me as an ignorant and very disturbing statement. I debated over those words, they sound harsh, but polygamy is worse. I believe every soul has worth, polygamy by its nature devalues women. And unlike Hawk every one of my great-grandparents came from some form of polygamous family. Orson wrote:polygamy by its nature devalues women.
What’s more, it devalues marriage and family. Ironic considering that’s the Church’s rationale for its position against same-sex marriage.Orson wrote:A student saying she is willing to live it hits me as an ignorant and very disturbing statement.
Are you willing to live it as a 1st wife or a 15th?
I am strongly against the idea that this will be coming back in the millennium or any other time. I do not believe that it is doctrinal.
I am willing to concede that there may be some polygynous marriages in heaven (just as there may be some polyandrous marriages) but that is not the same thing as saying that Polygamy is coming back or that we will be again living under the doctrine of polygamy in the future.
Roy wrote:Orson wrote:A student saying she is willing to live it hits me as an ignorant and very disturbing statement.
Are you willing to live it as a 1st wife or a 15th?
I am strongly against the idea that this will be coming back in the millennium or any other time. I do not believe that it is doctrinal.
I am willing to concede that there may be some polygynous marriages in heaven (just as there may be some polyandrous marriages) but that is not the same thing as saying that Polygamy is coming back or that we will be again living under the doctrine of polygamy in the future.
The year of polygamy series by Lindsey Hansen Park left me befuddled just how many people are living under it now. Of course it varies from the generally consenting Centennial Park group to the much more oppressive and controlling FLDS. I personally hope to see the FLDS die (as in disbanded) before I do.I also don’t believe polygamy is doctrinal and it’s one of the main things that leads me to believe that Joseph Smith made at least some of it up. That said, I feel I must point out that that this was an individual teacher (and student) who said something in the class. While I know it’s supposed to be teaching doctrine and the minds are impressionable, because they said it does not make it doctrinal nor even the position of the church. I will only defend the church on this point by saying that the top leadership is not saying this and I don’t see it in manuals (correct me if I’m wrong).
My polygamous ancestors were a bunch of Nutjobs. Devout Nutjobs. I would bet my house that the main body of the LDS church will never reinstitute polygamy. That’s beside the point. Countenancing past polygamy, refusing to clearly state that we are DONE in mortality with multiple spouses of ANY mix of gender and numbers, and SITTING BY while the implications of that wash over the women and girls of the church is, in my opinion, unconscionable.
It’s not one teacher. It’s lots of teachers; it’s the essays; it’s 132 that is keeping polygamy on the table. There are some things that are so objectionable that they truly do poison the whole. I still can’t quite believe how church has handled all this. Tin ears for today’s women.
Thank you, friends. I know I get riled about this.
Ann: You should get riled about this. I wish more people did.
Ann wrote:Countenancing past polygamy, refusing to clearly state that we are DONE in mortality with multiple spouses of ANY mix of gender and numbers, and SITTING BY while the implications of that wash over the women and girls of the church is, in my opinion, unconscionable.
I agree. Since we are so clearly not going back to the good ol’ days of polygamy – why not just say that it has been taken off the table for the rest of mortality. Why not double down that God’s eternal standard is monogamy. What does that mean for people that were married to multiple people in this lifetime (either successively or concurrently)? We do not know but we have faith that an infinitely loving God will sort it out in a just and merciful fashion.
How many LDS people would a statement like that offend?
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