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IMO, Schools and churches can’t really stop bullies. They can punish, but kids with bad behavior live lives of alternating actions and consequences. They simply compartmentalize and put up with punishments in order to continue being they way they are. The real issue is that in our society, we have parents that don’t teach correct principles, yet still allow their children to govern themselves. Too many parents are oblivious to their kids’ bad behavior… and when confronted, simply make excuses for their kids. While the Church is not at fault, per se, for the existence of bullies, the Church seems especially susceptible to abuse by miscreants, because people in the Church are patient, forgiving, and optimistic. I’ve seen so many cases where good LDS people just quietly shake their heads and mutter, “if I could just get Jimmy to pray more, I know he would stop
.” In my way of thinking, the Church does a pretty poor job of rewarding and respecting the kids that are good and are trying to be good, and gives undue attention and emphasis on the kids that will be out of the church at the first opportunity. I’ve seen, first hand, YM/YW organizations where the good kids feel clumsy and awkward and even embarrassed to be the good kids. I’ve seen them be shunned by the popular kids, who themselves, barely understand the most basic precepts of the religion, yet are always smiling and having a great time, sucking energy from the Church organization in the form of free camping, dances, adventures, activities, and social gatherings. In case this thread is being monitored by SLC 
, let me put it in plain terms. I’ve seen girls that ruled in YW but who could barely relate ANY story from the scriptures. I’ve seen the most popular member of the YM unable to describe what the atonement is. I’ve heard the cool YM standing in the hallway during SS, literally complaining to each other over how much religion is talked about at church. Adult leaders in these situations just press forward with optimism and try to find even MORE ways to make church fun for these kids… all the while, completely ignoring the below-the-radar kids that are really trying to live the gospel.I think that church is very limited in what it can do. I remember a group of YW that were bored at girl’s camp. Several of them plotted together to poison the beverage of one of the leaders – making her sick and getting them the early trip home that they wanted. In the end the YW were given a stern talking to, but the leader who was poisoned was furious that they got off so lightly. But what is the church to do – dis-fellowship? Ban them from youth activities?
SilentDawning wrote:If that doesn’t work, talk to the parents. I have done this twice now. One parent said “I only get involved if there is physical violence” and the bullying was verbal in that case, so it was non-starter. The other time I met with the kid and the parent and shared what happened. I said I would be well within my rights to call the police and skip any involvement of the priesthood leaders as this was serious. They were shocked and the bully started crying, and I continued to lay on what the consequences would be if this happened again. Eventually they apologized, and this fixed the problem. My daughter and the bully are friends now.
DW was being bullied by a 6 yr old girl in primary. It wasn’t physical but it was queen bee ostracism and nobody wants to sit by you stuff. This was part of why we switched wards. I witnessed it 3 times and three times went to the parents. The first two times the girl came to our house alone after church (we live just down the street) to apologize. On the third time the parent responded that her daughter is just “ornery” sometimes.
But I don’t know how much can be done – we are a volunteer organization after all. What do you do when some of your most devoted volunteers have children that misbehave?
I think I am understanding of the various difficulties for the persons involved, but that doesn’t prevent me from taking steps to protect the well being of my daughter – namely to switch wards.
Roy wrote:In the end the YW were given a stern talking to, but the leader who was poisoned was furious that they got off so lightly. But what is the church to do – dis-fellowship? Ban them from youth activities?
How about pressing charges? Sounds like a felony to me.I must lead a sheltered life. I had no idea there were so many miscreants running around at church. SD, I’m so sorry your daughter had to go through all of that. What an ordeal. Same to the rest of you who suffered through such things or whose children are having to deal with that. Scary.
I have seen this taken to extremes in the other direction. A mother showed up at seminary one day recently to berate the whole class for not being nicer to her daughter. As far as I know, there was nothing out of the ordinary going on, and certainly nothing that involved the whole class.
doug wrote:..
I have seen this taken to extremes in the other direction. A mother showed up at seminary one day recently to berate the whole class for not being nicer to her daughter. As far as I know, there was nothing out of the ordinary going on, and certainly nothing that involved the whole class.
This is the evolution of bullying that I’m talking about. What are adults suppose to do when we cant see it, identify it, or even judge if it is happening?
Doug, I don’t think you’ve been sheltered. I think you’ve been very lucky. We’ve lived in wards with youth that were just so mature, kind, and tolerant of one another that working with them was humbling. We’ve lived in wards where the youth were so immature, unkind, and intolerant of one another that working with them was hell.
The difference insofar as I’ve been able to tell consisted in the attitude of the parents. In the wards with considerate youth, the parents were kind, tolerant, spiritually grounded. They lived the golden rule and were genuinely invested in the ward. It was a community that they created and they felt some responsibility for it. These are the parents who love each other’s children even if they never see them outside of church. They genuinely care about one another.
In the wards where the youth were terrors, the parents were cliquish, materialistic, judgmental of one another – inevitably unrighteously so, and marked by a lack of charity and compassion. They saw themselves as either herding lesser saints or being herded by lesser saints. Their lack of respect was contagious. If a ward has this kind of disunity, attending can be a living hell.
Our kids are not just sponges, sucking up every word we say and attitude we express, they are mirrors, reflecting our attitudes back to others.
(There’s at least one moment every day when I cringe at my reflection in their words or actions… parenting is so not for the faint of heart!)
mercyngrace wrote:In the wards where the youth were terrors, the parents were cliquish, materialistic, judgmental of one another – inevitably un-righteously so, and marked by a lack of charity and compassion. They saw themselves as either herding lesser saints or being herded by lesser saints. Their lack of respect was contagious. If a ward has this kind of disunity, attending can be a living hell.
Our kids are not just sponges, sucking up every word we say and attitude we express, they are mirrors, reflecting our attitudes back to others.
BINGO – that is exactly what I think. The parents are too civilized to show their contempt outwardly and are instead just cold and distant to us. The kids OTOH – have no such constraints.
I don’t want to give the impression that the entire ward was like this. There are some genuinely caring individuals as well. It is also possible that those that treated us badly wouldn’t have been quite as difficult if we were better at fitting into the mold. Not that I’m making excuses for them, but some people have difficulty learning to accept people that are different than them.
doug wrote:How about pressing charges? Sounds like a felony to me.
Yes – If I or someone I love were to be poisoned, I would press charges. But this decision is not without consequences. Some may be supportive of your decision to go to the police, others may not. Remember that several girls were involved – each with families, this has the potential to be very divisive in the ward. Like I said before, my primary responsibility is the safety of my family- but there are always repercussions.
Regrettably, people in general only tend to act when they feel there is a crisis. So, to the extent we can create a crisis for people, without making ourselves look silly — this can effect change. Not appearing at church for a few weeks in a row is one way if anyone cares in your ward. Threatening some kind of firm action if bullying happens again, and following through when it does also creates a crisis. Roy wrote:Yes – If I or someone I love were to be poisoned, I would press charges. But this decision is not without consequences. Some may be supportive of your decision to go to the police, others may not. Remember that several girls were involved – each with families, this has the potential to be very divisive in the ward. Like I said before, my primary responsibility is the safety of my family- but there are always repercussions.
There is nothing that is consequence-less … even doing nothing. I think there is reluctance in the church to expose people, particularly youth, to the full consequences of their actions, either because we think we can “take care of these things” within the context of church culture, or because we don’t want to drag the good name of the church through the mud. This is misguided and irresponsible, IMO. Getting a lecture for deliberately poisoning someone … seriously?
the girls should have been charged for poisoning their leader. sure there would be repercussions but you can’t tiptoe around that kind of issue. the leader could have died for goodness sakes ! i’ve heard of other issues that were serious in nature involving youth and police charges could have been considered – but instead leaders took the issue into their own hands and upset the victim and the family and no charges were laid.
i know of one case where a boy of about 10 or 11 reported an adult male masturbating around him (both from church). the man was reported to the Branch President and the BP discouraged the mother of the boy from pressing charges against the man.
years later, both the family of the boy and the man lived in the same stake in another Canadian province. the mother warned other’s about the man’s tendencies and eventually this man was ex’d for an unrelated violation(false teaching). it would have made things a whole lot simpler if the branch president didn’t interfere with the mother’s initial wish to press charges against the adult male – instead of letting a situation like that drag on years later.
I just want to add a word of caution about blaming parents for the actions of their children. Yes, often there is a causal link – but I know really good parents who had kids who, to put it bluntly, just were bad kids. Psychopaths are the extreme example, but sometimes, like in the discussion about those born with disabilities, biology is a capricious lover. Sometimes, I think this is an example of nothing more than there being an opposition in ALL things.
Old-Timer wrote:I just want to add a word of caution about blaming parents for the actions of their children…..
“Good wombs bring forth bad sons.” – Miranda –
The TempestHi ~ I am in a doctoral psychology program and we just finished studying bullying. The best way to take care of bullying is to confront the bully, the parents of the bully, the every body around the bully, everyone in the environment that is affected by the bully. Hiding bullying regardless of who’s high counsel kid it is, and I do not put a lot of precedence in the hierarchy anyway, must be opened to everyone that is affected. The bullied child or person is not the only people affected by the bully. A bully will pull in buddies while pushing others out. Bullies usually pick on people that are friendly because they are easy targets. They are easily moved into learned helplessness. I was bullied once in a ward it was awful. I did not understand it back then. But we decided to move because it got so bad. The last day we were in church I stood at the pulpit and gave my testimony about loving people even if we don’t like them, and the reason we were moving was because of the treatment we received in the ward. I was chased out by the Bishops cane carrying wife. She swung that cane at me, and I ran in a hurry. What I realized that day, after eight months, I had finally found out that was the bishops wife. We had been ostracized almost immediately upon arrival, and it never got better. To not know the bishops wife in eight months is a sad commentary of how people can be alienated.
We are converts of 10 years. My husband has long hair in the back. I am a counter culture child. When we went to the Temple to be sealed, they took my husbands recommend and checked it out thoroughly to make sure he should be allowed in. My husband has been a faithful member, never complaining, never being negative, always there. Shame on our social structure that creates judgment and demeaning behaviors.
My heart goes out to anyone bullied because Jesus is all about love. And love is what should be the theme every single week. But especially for the youth, so young, so pure, so innocent that get bullied. So sad. Talk about. Talk about it to everyone involved until you cannot talk about it any more. Bullies exposed have no choice but to change their behavior.
Dean (I’m a woman not a guy…..this is my dad’s middle name)
Wow. I can’t help but commenting on the long hair thing. When my wife and I went to the Dallas temple to be sealed in about 1986, I had longer hair myself. I’m 56 and still have a ponytail btw. Yes…I was ostracized. Yep…still am.
What is it with the mainstream church and the unspoken dress-code/haircut-style requirements?
Bullying seems to seek out those that look/act different than the norm….like Jesus.
Bruce in Montana wrote:Wow.
What is it with the mainstream church and the unspoken dress-code/haircut-style requirements?Bullying seems to seek out those that look/act different than the norm….like Jesus.
Please let me know if you ever figure it out.
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