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OK. So, I’ve done it my whole life. I still pray now. We have family prayers, dinner prayers . . . the whole schmear. But in 50 years of praying, I just still don’t get it.
So somewhere up there is a God who is watching over 5 billion people, . . . individually . . . . waiting for us to ask him something. . . and then says . . “Oh, yeah, I wanted to give that person that, but I was waiting for you to ask me, the Omnipotent and Omnipresent. Here you go.”
I’m being flip, but I truly don’t understand. Do we ‘control’ God by our prayers, just because we WILL something to happen? Seems arrogant to me. Control is a strong word, but I do think that we are of the opinion that we can steer the direction God goes.
And for me, I don’t find it comforting to have the idea that someone up there is playing chess with my life. I have always found it more comforting to think that bad things happen ‘just because’, rather than having everything caused by God, and, even worse, bad things happen because you sinned. Or are inferior. Or God is just mad.
Your thoughts would be appreciated.
No, I don’t get it either. The temple prayer roll takes it one level deeper, I think. Somehow the fact that my loved one’s name is on a slip of paper somewhere and people unknown to them are offering generic prayers on their behalf is supposed to accomplish what, exactly? And, so the logic goes, other perhaps more deserving people will be denied similar blessings because nobody happened to put
theirname on a slip of paper? How many times have I heard stories like this: “I’m so glad I put my (insert relationship here)’s name on the temple roll. Just hours after I did so they were run over by a car, but survived.” Uh, okay. Yet, I still participate. The only reason I can think of to explain my seemingly irrational behaviour is, ultimately, that I love my family. If there is a purpose to life, I think it must be to learn to obey the two great commandments. Prayer, while it makes no rational sense, is the only way I know of to invoke my Creator’s help in doing that, and to plead on behalf of my family. I think prayer can take many forms, and that we needn’t feel it necessary to only use the method prescribed in church. I don’t know where God is or what He looks like, but I suspect that He is, in some sense, inside of me. So, in that sense, for me prayer is a bit like talking to myself.
I always have to snicker when we bless the ice cream and cookies at a ward activity that it will ‘nourish and strengthen’ us. Seriously though, is food not going to nourish us if we don’t pray? I do get the gratitude thing. I definitely think it is a principle of happiness and it is good to express thanks.
But on the idea of diety control; this is not endemic to Mormonism or Christianity. And the end result of prayer and ritual sacrifice is the same thing; to control an outcome. Perhaps both are rooted in the helplessness of man, especially in primitive societies. I mean what else could you do back then to make things better?
silentstruggle wrote:But on the idea of diety control; this is not endemic to Mormonism or Christianity. And the end result of prayer and ritual sacrifice is the same thing; to control an outcome. Perhaps both are rooted in the helplessness of man, especially in primitive societies. I mean what else could you do back then to make things better?
Yes. This really isn’t a Mormon thing at all. The whole of the Old Testament has one overarching theme — If the Israelites worship only YHWH, and perform rituals and ceremonies with enough precision, He will grant them military power to dominate neighboring tribes. If they are good, the enemy tribes will not be able to destroy them. If they are really super good, they can raid their enemies to steal their livestock and gold, and take their women captive as new wives and concubines. Sweet deal, huh?
I still pray, not so formally like I used to. Most of the time, I pray in a meditative way to feel connection to the divine, with no real words or thoughts beyond a sense of love. I still sometimes pray in the speaking way, expressing gratitude and even asking for “favor” in dealing with things in my life. Like others mentioned. I see God as being more inside me than way up high somewhere outside.
I think prayer has a number of purposes. Just as priesthood blessings may or may not invoke the power of God, they do comfort and move people. They help people feel loved in ways that words or instruction, outside of a blessing, don’t always. So does prayer comfort individuals and build unity among groups when it is heartfelt. To have a family member ask God to bless one his family members, to comfort them, etcetera, invokes a sense of caring that resonates with people. I also think prayer builds our self-confidence and helps us connect with whatever divine power there is, and helps us handle our challenges better through reflection and heartfelt expressions of the things we want in life.
At the same time, I think it DOES invite God to act on our behalf, but as one author said, “God’s rules are mysterious”. Just when you feel you leaned on the right principle or pushed the right button that encouraged Him to act in one circumstance, you find that button no longer works in other contexts, and you can’t tell why.
Again, this idea of living life without any expectation of a specific result in those areas you can’t control, comes to the fore. I think if one prays with that attitude, they will find greater peace.
silentstruggle wrote:…in 50 years of praying, I just still don’t get it…I truly don’t understand. Do we ‘control’ God by our prayers, just because we WILL something to happen? Seems arrogant to me…I don’t find it comforting to have the idea that someone up there is playing chess with my life. I have always found it more comforting to think that bad things happen ‘just because’, rather than having everything caused by God, and, even worse, bad things happen because you sinned. Or are inferior. Or God is just mad.
doug wrote:No, I don’t get it either…Yet, I still participate. The only reason I can think of to explain my seemingly irrational behaviour is, ultimately, that I love my family…Prayer, while it makes no rational sense, is the only way I know of to invoke my Creator’s help…I don’t know where God is or what He looks like, but I suspect that He is, in some sense, inside of me. So, in that sense, for me prayer is a bit like talking to myself.
I still pray once in a while. Whether God hears and answers these prayers or not at least it makes me feel better and it didn’t really cost me anything. Personally I don’t really believe in completely pre-determined outcomes as a general rule especially when people are involved in making decisions. Basically, I think many events are mostly random and could have just as easily happened quite differently than they did.
However, to me some of this apparent unpredictability in nature is part of the reason that it makes perfect sense to me that God would sometimes intervene and disturb the natural course of events at the last second. I already believe that God has influenced things in a big way as far as the appearance and development of life so it’s no major stretch of the imagination to think that he could just as easily influence things in smaller ways that also look like a lucky coincidence to skeptics.
To me praying is simply an attempt to tap into this assumed power and knowledge of God or to show appreciation and thank God for what I think he has already done so far. I don’t believe there is anything inherently irrational about it at all; it’s a matter of opinion. Some people believe in a God that has the power to change things in their favor and others don’t or else they assume that God wouldn’t do something like that to which I say: God’s thoughts are not necessarily your thoughts (Isaiah 55:
.SilentDawning wrote:Again, this idea of living life without any expectation of a specific result in those areas you can’t control, comes to the fore. I think if one prays with that attitude, they will find greater peace.
I can’t remember where I got this idea, but I think it was from an author named Greg Braden, who wrote some books on the power of prayer.
Anyway …
I really like the idea of praying and meditating on the concept of “Thy will be done.” I also have grown to feel a deep connection with the example given by Jesus in The Lord’s Prayer. We (in our Church) always include this in some lesson and make a strong point NOT to use formulaic prayers. I find a great deal of value actually contemplating this prayer and really FEELING the meaning in each statement:
Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come,
Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil:
For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever.
Amen.
Brian Johnston wrote:SilentDawning wrote:Again, this idea of living life without any expectation of a specific result in those areas you can’t control, comes to the fore. I think if one prays with that attitude, they will find greater peace.
I can’t remember where I got this idea, but I think it was from an author named Greg Braden, who wrote some books on the power of prayer.
I got this idea from a movie I watched called “Conversations with God”. I used it in a spiritual thought in PEC and it was met with quite a stony stare from my Bishop at the time, that I was introducing ideas from non-traditional LDS sources….
SilentDawning wrote:I got this idea from a movie I watched called “Conversations with God”. I used it in a spiritual thought in PEC and it was met with quite a stony stare from my Bishop at the time, that I was introducing ideas from non-traditional LDS sources….
I love the “Conversations with God” series… have read all his books. Both Neale Donald Walsh as well as Gregg Braden (whom you also mentioned, and I really love!) have some very powerful insights on prayer, and how it works. In fact, because of these men I have drastically changed the way I pray. I am a huge believer in the power of prayer and it now has a much different meaning to me.
As much as I love CwG, I would be very hesitant to directly share from his book in church. (although I am good at sneaking in random thoughts during discussions) His books are pretty much viewed as big-time blasphemy. (I have never seen the movie, but the book gets into such topics as… the nature of God, no satan/no hell, reincarnation, extra-terrestrials, and a lot on sex!) I did once bring one of his books to church which I read to myself when I would get bored. I am not sure if anyone noticed, or what they thought.
Maybe prayer is the way to ignite the divine within us. I think prayer isirrational if there is an expectation of a specific outcome, and perhaps even if there is an attempt to make an a posterioricorrelation between what I prayed for and what happened. I still pray but I just never ask for anything. Mostly just tell God what is on my mind, and have a pretty much one sided conversation. But on the odd chance he happens to be listening I want him to know what I am thinking, which is stupid because if he is omnipotent and knows what I am thinking why do I need to pray. Just like with blessings, I have had a handful of extraordinary experiences with prayer – but the VAST majority of the time (>99%) I don’t have undeniably spiritual experiences with prayer. I just don’t. Therefore, I struggle to pray formally – but it is very easy for me to have a prayer in my heart pretty much always. Like many things, I really love the symbolism of prayer – and I’ve had just enough experiences to lead me to believe it is important and powerful as a practice.
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