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I know I am a year late on this thread, but it’s been on my mind a lot. Purpose and meaning in prayer. I find it interesting now, as I look back on my life and realize, I am no longer sure I ever received answers to prayers. Let me clarify. I do not not know if I received an answer in the way I assumed I had. Again, it’s all about the meaning for me now.
How many times have we sat in church, and listened to someone bear testimony that they got an answer to a question they hadn’t asked? And frequently the answer comes at unexpected times. i know when I have felt I received an answer it was more likely to come while I was walking down the street, with a prayer in my heart, much more so than while on my knees.
But my answers, whatever they were, were a spiritual feeling for me. Sometimes subtle, sometimes powerful, but for me, with only 2 or 3 exceptions, always just that feeling. I then take that feeling, and interpret it based on a thousand factors, including my assumptions. Including, all the things I was told since I was a small, wee-lad.
So, why pray? If I ask a question, and the Lord answers a different question, I did not ask, and didn’t even know I needed to ask, then I didn’t learn anything to get there to my answer, right? It was just a gift from God. Yet I may pray for answers for a long time, and not receive. Or may not ask a question and get an answer to something else.
Always being interpreted by me, through my flawed, dark, DARK, glass.
Of course, I do not know what the original greek of James 5 is. Nor do I care much. Because even that may well be inspiration interpreted by flawed men and on and on. But in the KJV, it doesn’t say, “if you have a question…” It says, “If any of you lack wisdom…”
Seems to me now that if there is a purpose to prayer, at least for me, it is not in questions or answers. Those happen too, but the purpose is not in that. The purpose is in allignment to God. That’s it for me. Nothing more. My need and desire and willingness to get on my knees in humility and turn to God, to think and feel and try to be one with God. To commune. And if it takes calamaties or my human ‘needs’ to do that, so be it. And if giving me an answewr here or there, or me thinking I got an answer or interpreting it as such comes too, so be it.
But all God is wanting is for me to attune and allign to Him (or Her or Whatever). Of course, my view may not be anyone elses’. But it’s mine, from my own experience.
But for 36 years I was taught and believed that very specific and very direct answers to prayers were needed, common, and normal. While I allow that all those things may happen (direct visitations and such), I think it is extremely uncommon at best.
When I was young, my parents told me a story of how when a man was called to be an Apostle, they spent all night in the Holy of Holies in SLC Temple. The clear, implied subtext is that they were there to have a “personal experience” with Christ. If that happens, I suspect it too, is a feeling, more often than a visitation, and it is interpreted…. yadda.
None of this, if true, is bothersome to me in and of itself. But I feel that the vast majority of us need more. We need the constant implications of visitations, miracles on a grand scale. We are sign-seekers at heart. Why not? It’s easier.
My problem comes from the fact I feel that this is then … allowed by the church leadership. Even if they know better. It is an effective way to keep the masses together. And so these stories are told from toddler age on up. In fact, from infancy, in songs and such. When I was in grade school, I have had Bishops encourage me to pray for success on my tests, for instance.
I see these kinds of tactics by leadership to be misleading, and coercive and designed to control and amaze the masses. Of course, if prayer is about attuning to and being alligned with God, and not about an answer to a mortal question, then it is a rather hard concept to teach a child. But it still bothers me.
A true religion, if there is One … exists to help us get to a point where we don’t need it. It exists to get us to have a personal relationship with our creator, and everything else is just trappings. I mean, RS Homemaking Meeting? That is a spiritual imperative? Really?
After praying nearly every day for as long as I can remember, I stopped praying completely about two months ago, and my life has not changed. The same girls like me, my time management is the same, my grades are the same, and my social relationships are the same. If prayer worked, I should have watched my life fall apart as soon as I stopped praying, but that hasn’t happened. I’ve devised an experiment to find out if prayer works, but I haven’t had the nerve to carry it out. I’ll get a little Zeus figurine and a frisbee, and I’ll pray to Zeus for a few weeks for the things that I usually pray to God for and I’ll pray to the frisbee for a few weeks for the things that I usually pray to God for. If Zeus and the frisbee are just as good at answering prayers as God is, and given that I know that Zeus and the frisbee do not answer prayers, then I know that God does not answer those kinds of prayers.
We would expect to see quite a different world if God answered temporal prayers. But a friend of mine pointed out that the world would be chaotic if God answered all prayers- it’d be like the movie
Bruce Almighty.But at this point I think that God rarely, if ever, answers temporal prayers. Prayer may have value even if God does not answer, but I haven’t found it yet for me. It clearly has value for many other people.
I haven’t really gotten into meditation. Maybe there is some benefit to it that I haven’t found.
Well, if you do try that experiment, and are struck by lightning, you have my permission to view that as an ‘answer’ to your prayer. Which reminds me of my favorite passage from Douglas Adams (who described himself as a ‘Raging Atheist’ so as not to be confused with an agnostic): on the Babel Fish:
“… if you stick a Babel fish in your ear you can instantly understand anything in any form of language. …. Now it is such a bizarrely improbable coincidence that anything so mindbogglingly useful could have evolved purely by chance that some thinkers have chosen to see it as the final and clinching proof of the NON-existence of God.
The argument goes something like this:
‘I refuse to prove that I exist,’ says God, ‘for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing.’
‘But,’ says Man, ‘the Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn’t it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don’t. QED.’
‘Oh dear,’ says God, ‘I hadn’t thought of that,’ and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.
‘Oh, that was easy,’ says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killed on the next zebra crossing.”
–D. Adams
… Now, trying to set my insidious, sarcastic streak aside a moment, as I said above, I do believe in prayer, just NOT in the questions/answers thing as being the purpose of it. If it happens, it happens, but often I think I am coming to my own conclusions and feelings, assigning its source as from God, and going confidently on about my life of blindness …
Which becomes a severe problem when/if we then find out anachronistic things in other prayers or other means or sources of truth, and then say, ‘how can God have told me this??!’
But, if viewed as NOT a questions/answers schtick, but as a way to feel as God feels, think about things and life and eternity in a more spiritual way, and attune and allign ourselves with God in that way–a way to be closer to God–then I still get it. It has meaning for me again, and I can roll with that.
Where it becomes a problem for me, is when a GA says, don’t see a rated R movie. This should just be good advice. Good advice that an intelligent, experienced, good-hearted and spiritual man of God says, and we accept it as such (also accepting the possibility of exceptions), and use the good advice to enhance our lives.
Instead, we get SS class after SS class and youth FS and RS classes and EQ meetings that endlessly and endlessly debate it, because, well, it was said by a GA, and so must be revelation from God, and yadda yadda. Prayer and Reveleation and PH Leadership are NOT to be used in this way. Yet it is, often, and it permeates our faith and seems to me to be allowed, permitted, and even encouraged by the Brethren because it is easier to lead (or rule?) dumb sheep than enlightened, thinking beings. Gears then commence to grind for me….
I once caused my father-in-law to black out (now ex-father-in-law) because I was able to look him straight in the eye, as a TR holding, practicing, believing LDS saved for the latter-days for my exceptionalism…. That I would be 100% comfortable watching Saving Private Ryan or Schindler’s List with Jesus sitting next to me. They moved me that much, personally, on a spiritual level. And on a decision made by me, as a thinking, feeling, well-intentioned person, I am completely, 100% comfortable with answering to God someday for that choice.
The rest of that rated R, caffeine, adam’s bellybutton discussion is moot for me.
Quote:If prayer worked, I should have watched my life fall apart as soon as I stopped praying,
That depends entirely on what you mean when you say “worked”. Prayer works for me, but that’s because I don’t expect it to be the key to God, the vending machine. I use it much more like meditation and a request for clarity and understanding – and it has been a great blessing in my life, even though I have struggled all my life with “formal, spoken, personal” prayer.
mrtoad4u wrote:…
I once caused my father-in-law to black out (now ex-father-in-law) because I was able to look him straight in the eye, as a TR holding, practicing, believing LDS saved for the latter-days for my exceptionalism….
What the hell you talking about?
Chad Waldron
Bend Oregon Stake
A lot of prayer that I hear is the sort that is immediately answered, because it is: “bless that we may/can/might/might be able to” . . . do whatever. If you’re praying that you can or may do something . . . well, in most cases you already can or may or might be able to, say be kind, be safe, be faithful, strive to do what’s right, etc. etc. The question is: will you? And do you 1. have the nerve to put forth your part and change your life and 2. think of asking for help while you do it? I don’t know about all of your prayers, but most of the prayers I hear from Mormons’ mouths are so formulaic, so poorly thought out that they’re meaningless or nearly so.
Meditation is good. So is laying out the contents of your mind, however dirty, for the viewing of a higher intelligence. It helps you be honest with yourself. It helps you to see yourself as the despicable, low-life, lovable nothing you really are, and that given you humility, calmness and courage.
Quote:most of the prayers I hear from Mormons’ mouths are so formulaic, so poorly thought out that they’re meaningless or nearly so.
I agree with the specific wording, but I disagree with the implication. Let me explain:
Most of the prayers I “hear” are public ones, and those tend to be spoken with the intent of the meeting in mind. Therefore, they tend to be similar. Nearly all of the personal prayers I’ve heard in my life have been very different than the public ones – much more meaningfu, thoughtfull and heartfelt.
I said a very short prayer the other night. I prayed for energy to complete my goals to join the Navy and to have the ability to do well while in its domain. Normally I would graciously ask for things but this time I basically demanded it. I don’t feel there is anything wrong with this.
There are many portions of the Bible that encourages asking for things in prayer.
Mathew Chapter 7:7 is an example
LDS.org King James Mathew wrote:7 ¶Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
If you want to see how it is worded in other version of the Bible I would suggest going to one of my new favorite websites.
http://bible.cc/matthew/7-7.htmhttp://bible.cc/matthew/7-7.htm” class=”bbcode_url”> 😈 GREENAPPLES:angel: greenapples, you might be interested in the following post I wrote a few years ago on my personal blog: An Ephiphany Regarding “Ask, Seek, Find” – A Truly Beautiful Message( http://thingsofmysoul.blogspot.com/2009/06/epiphany-regarding-ask-seek-find-truly.html I read the portion of your blog that you linked me to. An interesting and very well thought out post. I suppose the biggest hang up for me right now is what is the kingdom of God and how do I seek after it? When I was a TBM the answer seemed so easy. The kingdom of God was the churches and Temples that would be used as vessels to launch me into heaven. that is what I thought whenever I would go to the Seattle Temple for Baptisms for the dead. I think mainly because the Seattle Temple always kind of looked like a giant spaceship to me. The fountain looked like giant stairs that lead to this giantspaceship.
Now things are different I no longer see the church as the kingdom of God. I feel closest to God or what I feel as God when I am in nature. When I am either surrounded by trees, up high in the mountains or surrounded by water. I feel closest to God in these places.
I think the real answer lies in the song Welcome to my world. I prefer the Jim Reeve’s Version best.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOCCvN8YDuc&feature=fvwrel ” class=”bbcode_url”> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOCCvN8YDuc&feature=fvwrel In one of the Bible helps from the church book stores basically says that the scripture means that there is some required effort of asking, seeking and knocking. I no where to go to ask, and I have my own places to seek and my own ideas of where to go where to knock. Those places I shall go. Those places are outside of church and I shall make it a point to go to those places. My idea of God is probably much different than some others. My idea of where to go to seek and knock will be different than others. It is my own way and my ways are not your ways and my thoughts are not your thoughts.
Old-Timer wrote:Most of the prayers I “hear” are public ones, and those tend to be spoken with the intent of the meeting in mind. Therefore, they tend to be similar. Nearly all of the personal prayers I’ve heard in my life have been very different than the public ones – much more meaningfu, thoughtfull and heartfelt.
Public and family prayers as well: I’ve had to endure countless family prayers filled with as much rote repetition and marked by as little careful thought as public ones. But I guess the family is another kind of audience.
Prayer makes a lot of people, including myself, happier. In that itself it is positive. SamBee wrote:Prayer makes a lot of people, including myself, happier. In that itself it is positive.
I agree – the joy/comfort associated, is sufficient reason to pray.I see prayer as having faith in something beyond us (our ego base) – asking our higher/subconscious selves for things, or to be grateful.
Every day, for years, I’ve prayed by myself & with our family to “help those who are suffering, especially children.”
For a while, I’ve voiced unpopular opinion about abortion – explaining the grusome details so many are too uncomfortable with acknowledging. I realied, that I was kindof answering my own prayer – by standing up for those most vulnerable little one’s who have no voice, but are being mistreated & killed in the most horrible ways.
Besides as a means of loving others, I also see prayer as a way of loving ourselves.
Jesus taught, “The kingdom of God is within you.” Prayer is a way of tapping into the amazing world/realm right within us.
Scripture states to “pray always” & I see this as always worshipping/prioritizing God/Love – in all we think, say & do, to always appreciate goodness & strive for better, through trial & error/active faith.
And unlike a lot of other things that make people happier, there are no unpleasant side effects. cwald wrote:mrtoad4u wrote:…
I once caused my father-in-law to black out (now ex-father-in-law) because I was able to look him straight in the eye, as a TR holding, practicing, believing LDS saved for the latter-days for my exceptionalism….
What the hell you talking about?
It sounds like his prim and proper FIL was struck down by an acute attack of the vapors, due to the scandalous and uncivilized claim that Jesus might enjoy eating some popcorn, drinking a coke and watching “Saving Private Ryan” with his TR-holding buds.
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