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This scriptural paradox spills into other areas as well. Anyone here read the book Believing Christ by Robinson? Wonder why that book was such a hit? Anyone ever listen to some of the material by Brad Wilcox? Ever wonder why some of that took off so much as well?
Another faith crisis point for me revolves around understanding the balance between grace and works. Now, I don;t want to smear any lines–this topic has received ample discussion. But, I have wondered personally why the emphasis is so much on works–keeping the commandments, when one of the most interesting dilimas is that keeping the commandments to “earn” salvation defeats the purpose of faith.
Another challenge i have is this one:
D&C 82:7; “And now, verily I say unto you, I, the Lord, will not lay any sin to your charge; go your ways and sin no more; but unto that soul who sinneth shall the former sins return, saith the Lord your God
In the context of Alma’s son Corianton, we have a propensity, IMHO, to focus on the heinous nature of his sins….his “sin next to murder”. But, why so little emphasis on the fact that HE was inline to become a keeper of the records, and later in the book, was even called a righteous man of God?
I don’t know anyone who is over sinning. Sorry,..I’m not,..and for you all out there who have it under control…ROCK ON.
Seems like many of my sins will never be overcome,…because the way I was taught about this scripture, you have to live “sinless” to finally qualify. But, until that moment,…you will always have all of your old sins return. In my case, forget it…I’m going to hell.
Black and white thinking, but that idea still influences many. How many people, for example, still hold to the fact that we are saved by overcoming our sins?…when this scripture and our own infallibility destroys that?
Rob4Hope wrote:the balance between grace and works
R4H, just be aware that this isn’t really the place to find answers to gospel questions. The question of faith/works has been a point of confusion and contradiction (and heated argument) since the first century. Christian churches continue to be all over the map on this, and paradoxes abound.At this site, there is a very broad range of belief; while there aren’t really any or many here who believe LDS theology to its fullest extent, the people here are scattered in every direction of faith.
I’m not saying that it isn’t an interesting question, and I certainly do have my opinions on the subject. We do discuss the nature of god here, for example, but not really in the pursuit of figuring it out, more like how our individual perspectives help/hinder our efforts to live with our organized religion.
This site is not about finding truth, but about finding peace.
In that vein, I suggest figuring out what sin/repentance mean to you. Our church has a perspective on it. Other Christian churches have their perspective. Individuals have their perspective. The great thing to take away from that is that no one has the monopoly on answers; therefore, each of us can come to our own answer – one that resonates with us.
There is a lot of emphasis on works in our religion, but coupled with Grace as well. Understanding these things is a good journey to study, ponder and pray about. There is grace, sometimes people qualify it as “only after all you can do”, but I actually think the Grace is there all the time regardless. And I think the threads we have in our archives on Believing Christ point this out, that we often put so much pressure on ourselves because we are unsure what is “all I can do” and “what more I can do?” when I know I’m not perfect.
There is no clear cut answer. There is not measuring stick to say if you pay 10%, attend meetings 95%, and do home teaching 80% that is all you can do. It is up to the individual, and there is no wrong answer. It is honestly between you and the Lord on what you feel you are doing and part of the lesson is to learn to be at peace with imperfections in yourself, and to use the word “and”. I’m a sinner “and” the Lord is OK with where I’m at. I’m imperfect “and” I’m trying. God doesn’t allow sin “and” I have hope through the Atonement.
What I like about our teachings is that there is emphasis on works to show our hearts are pure, and to stretch us to try. Like exercising your muscles, you don’t do it in one day and say “Yep…now I’m fit.” But you realize it is a constant work to accept where you are, what direction you’re going, and readjust as needed, usually each Sunday at a minimum.
Prayer can be an important tool to reassure yourself with God you are OK as you are now, even while you are working on things.
On Own Now wrote:Rob4Hope wrote:the balance between grace and works
R4H, just be aware that this isn’t really the place to find answers to gospel questions. The question of faith/works has been a point of confusion and contradiction (and heated argument) since the first century. Christian churches continue to be all over the map on this, and paradoxes abound.At this site, there is a very broad range of belief; while there aren’t really any or many here who believe LDS theology to its fullest extent, the people here are scattered in every direction of faith.
I’m not saying that it isn’t an interesting question, and I certainly do have my opinions on the subject. We do discuss the nature of god here, for example, but not really in the pursuit of figuring it out, more like how our individual perspectives help/hinder our efforts to live with our organized religion.
This site is not about finding truth, but about finding peace.
My question was on the emphasis placed, … not the original dilemma. Perhaps I wasn’t as clear as I would like.
When emphasis is placed on works, for example, it spills over into shame in many instances. Shame is often used as a control tool as well…which is not healthy or right IMHO.
If you are interested, read the following from my personal blog. It includes a very brief historical summary and explanation of why works came to dominate our discourse so much in the past: “
Embracing Grace” ( http://thingsofmysoul.blogspot.com/2007/11/embracing-grace.html Old-Timer wrote:If you are interested, read the following from my personal blog. It includes a very brief historical summary and explanation of why works came to dominate our discourse so much in the past:
“
Embracing Grace” ( http://thingsofmysoul.blogspot.com/2007/11/embracing-grace.html I did read it. Thanks Ray.
This thread has several specific instances with a common theme. What can we do with contradictions in the gospel? In studying some of the early christian church, there were some men that (based upon their experience) would gravitate toward a particular couple of scripture verses and develop an gospel framework out of that. I remember that there was one that had always had an easy time of living the commandments. He gravitated towards works and accountability. Another lived a life of sowing wild oats until one point in middle age he felt called to the gospel. Based upon his experience and a few scriptures he championed the idea of irresistable grace (more or less that God calls who he calls and we mortals are powerless to resist). Sometimes they became influential enough to have a significant impact on the church and the gospel as a whole.
The LDS book where I read about these early christian church thinkers painted them as evidence of the apostasy – that the scriptures and the gospel were being reinterpreted by unathorized individuals building support and factions unto themselves.
I believe that this continues to happen in our church and in our day. Stephen Robinson and Brad Wilcox are just two examples of modern church thinkers and influencers.
So when I read the scriptures, I am aware that there too are different and competing principles and opinions as mostly good and holy men set about to put into words their understanding of God and His plan for us.
I do not try to reconcile the differences as though they were all in agreement. I imagine that if we put Jesus, Moses, Paul, and Brigham in the same room the differences might come to blows. Even Jesus was known to get out the whip when necessary.
I believe that there is no perfect encapsulation of the gospel – I also believe that God is accepting of less than perfect understandings. I am free to explore the religious landscape and build a home that speaks to my heart and soul.
IOW – What are we to do when the “iron rod” forks or splits? We can listen to our own personal “Liahona” to direct us.
Roy, great post, as usual. I always appreciate your insight. Roy wrote:I imagine that if we put Jesus, Moses, Paul, and Brigham in the same room the differences might come to blows.
“But when Cephas (Peter) came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood self-condemned” – Paul to the Galatians, relating tales of the dispute between those who followed the Law and those who wanted the Gentiles to be Christians without it. (Galatians 2:11 NRSV). This is Paul and Peter we are talking about, and in no sense does the LDS view of the Great Apostasy start with Paul or Peter.
Roy wrote:I imagine that if we put Jesus, Moses, Paul, and Brigham in the same room the differences might come to blows.
Haha…I don’t know if it would come to blows, or just an awful lot of rolling on the floor laughing….Get all the prophets together in one room…that would be a hoot…”You believe it meant WHAT? Marriage was a simple and natural concept, why were you teaching celibacy?…and you over there…Brigham…what the heck were you thinking?”
😆 😆 Roy wrote:This thread has several specific instances with a common theme. What can we do with contradictions in the gospel?
In a world of universal consensus how does one become an agent unto themselves? The wiggle room that contradictions create allow people to come to their own conclusions about existing interpretations and maybe even create their own answer. Either way it helps people get to a place where they can defend their answer, it’s their answer, they begin to own it.
It’s the contradictions that are driving discovery.
Roy wrote:So when I read the scriptures, I am aware that there too are different and competing principles and opinions as mostly good and holy men set about to put into words their understanding of God and His plan for us.
Yes, I think that’s what really drives the contradictions. People with unique perspectives relating what they believe to be god’s plan for us. That last part shouldn’t be glossed over, essentially the scriptures are written (and interpreted) by people that have enough confidence to relate what they believe as being god’s plan for everyone. The authors have unique perspectives but so do the people on the receiving end. People assign weight to the various opinions and place more focus on what aligns with their personal beliefs.
Heber13 wrote:Roy wrote:I imagine that if we put Jesus, Moses, Paul, and Brigham in the same room the differences might come to blows.
Haha…I don’t know if it would come to blows, or just an awful lot of rolling on the floor laughing….Get all the prophets together in one room…that would be a hoot…”You believe it meant WHAT? Marriage was a simple and natural concept, why were you teaching celibacy?…and you over there…Brigham…what the heck were you thinking?”
😆 😆 A bunch of strong willed, alpha male, leader types that all have different interpretations for things. The only question I have is how much money I’d be willing to part with when they put the event on pay per view. I’d also be super interested in the Vegas odds.
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