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I’m having a lot of trouble pinning down the level at which pride goes wrong. According to President Benson in his famous talk, it doesn’t take much. Some quotes:
Quote:“In the scriptures there is no such thing as righteous pride—it is always considered a sin. Therefore, no matter how the world uses the term, we must understand how God uses the term so we can understand the language of holy writ and profit thereby.”
How justified was Ammon in his “joy” in his labors after his reunion with Alma the Younger (Alma 26)?
Quote:“The proud make every man their adversary by pitting their intellects, opinions, works, wealth, talents, or any other worldly measuring device against others … The proud stand more in fear of men’s judgment than of God’s judgment. Fear of men’s judgment manifests itself in competition for men’s approval.”
Well, um … isn’t that what happens when we apply for a job, even though we don’t necessarily see the other applicants?
Quote:“Disobedience is essentially a prideful power struggle against someone in authority over us … A proud person hates the fact that someone is above him. He thinks this lowers his position.”
The exception here is when the person in authority is in the wrong about something.
Quote:“The antidote for pride is humility—meekness,
submissiveness. … God will have a humble people. Either we can choose to be humble or we can be compelledto be humble. Alma said, ‘Blessed are they who humble themselves without being compelled to be humble.’ ” (emphasis added) We are also expected to do the right thing, even in cases where it costs us (though that’s probably more the case with men than with God).
Quote:“We can choose to humble ourselves by conquering enmity toward our brothers and sisters, esteeming them as ourselves, and lifting them as high or higher than we are … We can choose to humble ourselves by receiving counsel and
chastisement.” (emphasis added) Yes, enmity consumes … and I’m not past that. Especially lately (reasons are mentioned in another thread), I’ve been throwing the “You’ll answer to the Lord about this” line back at some of the leaders who are so fond of dispensing it. Which leads to the chastisement part. I really get the feeling that when church leaders dispense chastisement, it doesn’t stick to the topic. In MadGab form, it seems to be, “You have
(a physical disease), you do (a secondary sin), you underperform in your (a calling), your family sucks , because you do/have(the sin/problem/issue in question). I agree that some chastisement is deserved. And
maybesome of the filled-in blanks are situationally true, but it’s often a reach. Some of those counterpoints seem to me more like assertiveness – maybe “spine” is another way to say it. I’ve needed to increase mine for a long time. I’m too used to letting people walk all over me. But – especially since I personally have an issue that needs some chastisement – am I crossing the pride line here? Am I just too jaded about the things church leaders say – or more correctly, are
goingto say to me? Or do my thoughts have any merit? Fwiw, I don’t disagree with Pres. Benson’s statements about pride – except his assertion that there are no cases where the word “pride” is used as a positive thing. I’m sure he didn’t mean people can not feel good about themselves or their accomplishments; rather, he was focusing on how the scriptures use the word pride only – and, frankly, not distinguishing enough the cases where it’s fine and good to feel self-worth and “proud” of accomplishments. Pres. Uchtdorf made that point in his own talk about pride – in which he mentioned that those cases that really are nothing more than “being proud of” accomplishments (ours and others, including our children, for example) are perfectly fine. In fact, they are godly.
The type of pride that Pres. Benson addressed is the fundamental feeling of superiority that accompanies too many people’s feelings about their accomplishments. It is the creation of levels among people that raise some above others for arbitrary reasons – that make me feel I am better than someone else in the eyes of God, of more “worth” in His eyes – that makes me say, “I won’t listen to you (God, ourselves or anyone else), because you have nothing to teach me.” That type of pride exists inside and outside the LDS Church and is a basic part of the natural (wo)man. Some of our current teachings build that type of pride, unfortunately – while our theology breaks it down, if understood correctly.
I’m a little afraid that somebody will think I’m twisting words just to pick a fight, when they read the following. Not my intent. Call me a dunce if you want to, but I find this stuff hard to grasp. So people who live under a repressive tyrant resent the tyrant. Relative worth and superiority are arbitrary – but the tyrant, in whatever way, has codified it. So by definition, these people are under compelled humility, compelled submission … but any resentment of the tyrant is unrighteous pride even if it’s just an attempt to preserve a little dignity?
I didn’t say that and never will. As I said in the other thread, a piece of advice, said with a smile on my face:
Try to set aside everything you’ve heard other people say when you read things that are said here. We aren’t like most people with whom you’ve talked about these issues in the past, and filtering our words through what they have said only will lead to misunderstanding.
Seriously, for a different perspective, read Pres. Uchtdorf’s talk about pride.
President Uchtdorf’s perspective isn’t really any different. You’re not supposed to take pride in or elevate yourself based on various possessions, deeds, or accomplishments. Because they’re illusions. That includes work and family if you’re not doing it right. And by definition, you never do. Let me ask a very direct question: Do you think you are more special in God’s eyes than other people – that God loves you more than He loves others – based primarily or exclusively on what you have that they don’t have?
If your answer is, “No,” you are not proud in the way that Pres. Uchtdorf explains pride.
No, I don’t think that at all. (Much of the time, I find myself thinking the opposite is true. But that’s another story.) So I don’t fit President Uchtdorf’s definition, but apparently I carry unrighteous pride nevertheless.
Quote:So I don’t fit President Uchtdorf’s definition, but apparently I carry unrighteous pride nevertheless.
I hope this is inspiration, because it hit me pretty hard as I read the above statement:
I believe the opposite of pride is NOT humility. I believe the opposite of pride (self-elevation) is self-hatred / self-loathing (self-lowering). The opposite of loving one’s self too much (pride) is loving one’s self too little / hating one’s self.
The cure is learning to love yourself – and you can’t do that if you equate loving yourself with pride.The second great commandment in the law starts with the foundation of self-love, which then can be extended to loving others as yourself. That type of self-love comes from love of God – meaning, I believe, in this context, recognizing that God loves YOU for who you are – since, “We love Him because he first loved us.” Thus, accepting that God loves you is the first step toward rejecting self-loathing – and accepting that God loves everyone else as much as He loves you is the cure for the other extreme – pride.
You are a child of God, and
HEloves you – he LOVESyou – he loves YOU. That is the foundation on which everything else can be built. Question, then … would you say that there’s any connection at all between standing up for yourself and loving yourself? Or are we talking apples and oranges here? Quote:would you say that there’s any connection at all between standing up for yourself and loving yourself?
Yes, absolutely – but there are different ways to stand up for yourself. You can be assertive without being proud or aggressive – or, in lots of cases, confrontational. In some case, confrontation is necessary – but even that can be done in different ways. Standing up for myself can be the result of pride – but it also can be the result of conviction and love. Getting into screaming matches, for example, rarely is caused by self-love – and it often isn’t a matter of standing up for one’s self. There is a difference between standing up for one’s self and throwing punches – verbal or physical.
Again, pride is more a matter of “how” we do something than exactly “what” we do – and how we judge or condemn others as we do things.
And THAT’S where it all breaks. After I get squashed by the impossibility of everything, they turn around and basically tell me to deny what that little girl’s mother said. If they think THAT little of me, I’m something less than a child of God.
👿 Well, the Jedi mind trick didn’t work.
(I’m adding the stuff below here a few hours later)
Hmmm … about five minutes after I posted this, I had a small epiphany that may make it easier to control the temper explosions. I’ll have to evaluate that in coming days. I’m no happier about the occurrences, but maybe I can separate them a little. More about that later, maybe not in this thread though.
(I read your epiphany after typing my comment, but I decided to leave my comment as it was written originally. Good night.) 
Pride has NOTHING to do with how others view you; it is about how you view yourself and others.
The situation you have described happening that is the root of all of this is wrong, but your reaction (minus the screaming matches), as written, isn’t an example of pride – unless you are insisting incorrectly about something you don’t understand fully. I don’t get that sense from your description, but I don’t know all the details (since I only have your version of what happened), so all I can do is answer about general principles – and I keep returning to the same point:
I don’t know if you are acting out of “pride” in this case, but I do get the strong feeling that you are allowing others to define you and your actions. You are basing your self-worth on how others see you. You asked if you are being proud, and we have discussed various instances. You’ve asked if pride equals various things, and I’ve given you my input – but you keep circling back to the same frustrations over how you are perceived by others and what that means or doesn’t mean about yourself.
I can’t change your situation, and neither can anyone else here. What we can do is try to help you look at your situation and try to find coping mechanisms – and provide our own perspectives on the questions you ask. You can be assertive, but you have to stop caring so deeply about how others view you and start figuring out how you view yourself – and work on loving yourself before you can work on loving others. You also have to work on controlling your temper in situations where losing it does nobody any good.
I don’t see pride; I see confusion and self-doubt and deep frustration and a damaged soul. You can’t change others right now; you have to look for ways to heal. That’s not easy, but it’s important to try – whether that effort is undertaken here or through a professional channel.
I’m headed to bed soon. I hope you can find a measure of peace and love. I hope others here can help add their own perspectives – and that someone else has a response that will help more than mine. All I have are my own experiences and perspectives, but there are lots of different ones on this board. I hope one resonates with you.
Old-Timer wrote:I believe the opposite of pride is NOT humility. I believe the opposite of pride (self-elevation) is self-hatred / self-loathing (self-lowering). The opposite of loving one’s self too much (pride) is loving one’s self too little / hating one’s self.
That’s awesome, Ray. I had never contemplated this, but as soon as I read it I thought “I agree 100% with that.” If unrighteous self-aggrandizement (pride) is on one end of a continuum and self-loathing is on the other, humility is the balance point in the middle.
Old-Timer wrote: Quote:
Yes, absolutely – but there are different ways to stand up for yourself. You can be assertive without being proud or aggressive – or, in lots of cases, confrontational. In some case, confrontation is necessary – but even that can be done in different ways. Standing up for myself can be the result of pride – but it also can be the result of conviction and love.I quit my church calling, and as I did so I had the thought that they will get by without me, but they will miss what I brought to the table. I was full of pride, resentment, anger, and hurt because of other’s actions. I don’t necessarily view pride as a bad thing. I think all of us have to have a degree of pride to stay afloat in this world of fierce competition. I know many time if I would have given into my pride it would have actually saved me from some bad situations. Sometimes we are too good for certain employment and certain schools. If that pride surfaces it can save us from a lot of wasted effort and time. Who knows maybe if we wait for that better job (virtue of Patience) we would not settle for the job that we don’t really want. I struggle with pride every time I go to church.
I think the Church helps create pride through missionary farewells, homecomings, Eagle Scout, On My Honor Award. I saw all these things as self-elevating.
Quote:I quit my church calling, and as I did so I had the thought that they will get by without me, but they will miss what I brought to the table.
Funny, really. I did the same last year (for reasons unrelated my central issue). A few months afterward, the ward clerk told me I was the best membership clerk he’d ever had. He certainly didn’t think so at the time, though.
:think: Go figure.
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