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I also wanted to address something else and perhaps this needs a new thread but here it is. It may just be my community but as a woman I feel somewhat ignored when I make a personal request to church leadership. In regards to the experience I related in the previous post, I chose to have my husband handle the initial boundary setting because previous experience had taught me that my request would not be honored. I at one time had 4 callings. I met with the bishop and asked to be released from one of the callings because I was feeling overwhelmed at the time. He told me he would work on it and nothing ever occurred.
I just wondered if that had been anyone else’s experience.
Our problem here is that we have a full sacrament meeting (I can barely find a seat), but when it comes to the other stuff, you can barely see these numbers for dust. These folk aren’t turning up for the other two hours, so they’re not going to be doing a calling of any kind. In fact, I don’t even know who most of them are. We have a lot of people coming and going because this is a city, but still… canadiangirl wrote:I believe he is talking about respectfully setting healthy boundaries in regards to our activity within the church.I
If that’s what he meant, then I’m all for it. I’ve always believed that — and you have to be willing to embrace the fact that some people/leaders will look down on you for refusing a calling or setting limits on it. I looked down on people that way when I was a TBM and leader.
But really, no one knows my own situation better than myself, so I don’t mind telling people I’m not ready for a certain calling right now. I was a worn out HPGL a while ago, and the Bishop sat me down and asked me to take on a calling that was a really bad grind. I said “No” immediately. Never felt terrible about it.
Canadiangirl — you also asked if others found requests for releases or other things from leadership fell on deaf ears. With me –yes — in fact, that was what pushed me into State 4 again within the last couple years. The short version is that I had a lot of pressures in my life, and then asked for a release from a high profile calling. 4 months later it happened, with no communication from the Stake about the status of the release during that period. It was maddening. However, I handled this whole thing badly. I stopped functioning in the calling about 2.5 months into the period after I asked for a release. I was open about why when anyone asked me ( my reason — frustration they didn’t seem to be getting around to it). As a result, I looked like a fool to the TBM’s in my Ward. My assistant chewed me out about it, and refers to that period as the time I “went off the deep end”. My kids started looking at Church like an optional activity because I stayed home and they wanted to as well. The whole thing was a mess.
However, eventually they DID take care of the situation, and the High Councilor over my unit even mentioned that this bit of administration was long overdue. Almost an admission they droppped the ball. But it came at the price of my reputation, the spirituality of my family for a while, and my relationship with the Stake.
In general, the callings situation is made worse by the fact you can’t get the priesthood leaders to put “terms” on your service when you get called. For example, you can’t say ‘I’ll do this for a year at which point we’ll re-evaluate’. The attitude is that you serve for as long as they tell you to serve. You also don’t put conditions on it, such as “I’ll be president of this auxiliary provided such and such happens”. As you indicated, this isn’t consistent with the authoritarian leadership style of the Church, which is tempered by the D&C 121 admonition to be gentle and persuasive. But nonetheless, there’s the sub-culture of expected obedience you hear about over the pulpit.
So, how do you handle this bit of frustration?
First off, I learned that it’s foolish to grandstand the reasons for ceasing to function in the calling like I did. Keep the reasons to oneself.
SecondI do think that ceasing to function in the calling after a couple follow-ups is one way to get released in smaller, less visible callings. However, this does hurt your reputation if you care about that. Some people announce they are moving, and then never move. You have to decide if you think this is ethical; I personally don’t think so. Another man indicated his job was “taking him away” as of such and such a date. He was released before the date, disappeared for a couple weeks, and then returned saying there was a change in plans. By then he was out of the calling.
Third, I’m going to be really careful about accepting callings that are approved by the Stake. I think I’ll do them only if I really want them or have some other strong reason for takin it on — no more blind acceptance based on my last experience. They take forever to get executed when you want to be released, but happen like lightning when they want you to accept the calling — very self-serving in my view.
Fourth, I try to never ask for resources from leaders or manager in my work anymore. The answer is almost always “No”. Gets rid of the angst to never ask.
That’s my take on it….
SilentDawning wrote:Do you think that being assertivein these ways will effect change?…If all the active members went to Church an demonstrated against say, a bit of alcohol now and then, I can imagine what would happen. At a minimum, the STake would get involved and reprimand everyone. Some might even be brought up before a council for apostasy….I don’t see that working….although I’d love to see a more bottom-up way of making decisions in the Church.
canadiangirl wrote:I totally get what DA is talking about…So when Devilsadvocate, advocates being more assertive I understand what he is saying. He’s not talking about fighting for a change in the Word of Wisdom. I believe he is talking about respectfully setting healthy boundaries in regards to our activity within the church…Am I getting what you are saying DA?
That’s exactly what I am talking about, basically just setting some boundaries on an individual basis and not letting them manipulate you into commitments that you don’t really feel comfortable with. I don’t think they will typically excommunicate anyone for saying no to some of these expectations; all they can really do about it in most cases is not give you a temple recommend or callings, etc. and maybe scold you for supposedly not doing your duty. Just because other people are content to believe all this and do what they are told it doesn’t mean that I need to go along with all of this as well.
And yes I absolutely do think this kind of assertiveness by enough members could easily bring about some positive changes. In fact, I think more active members saying no would actually be much more likely to result in real changes than to expect the top Church leaders to just all of a sudden come to a consensus and change things on their own. Like I said in some other threads, I think this is exactly what happened with birth control, a significant percentage of active members stopped listening to them anyway so then they stopped harping on this the way they used to. It used to be a sin and now it’s not. Similarly evolution used to be a heresy according to some Church leaders like Bruce R. McConkie and Joseph Fielding Smith but now it’s not.
If they have trouble getting enough people to accept all these callings then I don’t think they will have any choice but to scale back and maybe combine or cut some meetings and reconsider how much of this work is really necessary. If they see the percentage of active members with current temple recommends drop significantly then maybe they will really start to consider the reasons why and evaluate whether or not some of these things are simply outdated traditions that are not really useful or necessary at this point. Even if things don’t change much in my lifetime I already felt better as soon as I realized that I don’t need to believe everything they say anymore.
OK DA — I see what you mean. I guess I feel that there’s little the membership can do on an individual basis to change the minds of the leaders at the top about things. I think your kind of influence over policy comes when the things they want us to do are just so unreasonable people make the individual decision to NOT do them anymore. AT one time, they used to really take you to task over certain sexual practices (beyond birth control). They stopped doing that because I think they were reaching too far into the personal lives of the members and people either balked at the question or they found everyone was engaging in that particular monogamous practice.
It’s these kinds of policies that I think will get changed over time; but the are a natural outgrowth of people’s personal decision, not in any organized format.
History (mythology) is full of stories of authority putting horrible burdens on people for no other purpose other than to test their obedience to authority. God wanting Abraham to offer up Isaac, Joseph Smith wanting Heber C Kimball’s wife for his own (and telling him so), stake presidents who want all men in their stakes to be clean shaven, President Hinkley dictating how many earrings a woman may wear, etc. Since these types of actions have no purpose other than to test obedience, it is no wonder there is a resistance to authority. If someone in authority asks me (or commands me) to do something, they better have a legitimate reason for it.
All_no-ing wrote:History (mythology) is full of stories of authority putting horrible burdens on people for no other purpose other than to test their obedience to authority. God wanting Abraham to offer up Isaac, Joseph Smith wanting Heber C Kimball’s wife for his own (and telling him so), stake presidents who want all men in their stakes to be clean shaven, President Hinkley dictating how many earrings a woman may wear, etc.
Since these types of actions have no purpose other than to test obedience, it is no wonder there is a resistance to authority. If someone in authority asks me (or commands me) to do something, they better have a legitimate reason for it.
I went through a tough experience regarding an adoption years ago, and one person said “it’s a test”. I later went semi-active. I later said “I guess I failed the test” when they brought it up again. End of conversation.
For decades people have been trying to get control of other’s behavior; I often wonder if that story of Abraham was made up to encourage others to simply obey authority. No longer will I do things because I want to pass a test.
SilentDawning wrote:For decades people have been trying to get control of other’s behavior; I often wonder if that story of Abraham was made up to encourage others to simply obey authority. No longer will I do things because I want to pass a test.
Amen brotha’, amen.
😈 The most interesting take on the story of Abraham and Isaac I’ve ever read said that Abraham had grown up in a culture of child sacrifice – and that in going to the mountain to sacrifice Isaac, he simply was doing what he had grown up doing. After all, he already had other sons who could give him a numberless posterity. It is God stopping him from completing the ritual sacrifice Abraham intended that is the central point, according to this take. Only in retrospect, when recorded after many hundreds of years afterward by scribes wishing to build up their origin myths, did the story become “God commanded it as a great test of faith”. In doing so, they lost the real message in the event – that a true Father God would not command the sacrifice of His children but instead commanded clearly that it be stopped and even provided a substitute animal for Abraham.
I like this take on it, personally – and “as far as it is translated correctly” gives me plenty of justification to see reasonable alternatives.
Wow I agree with Cwald with local priestood having your salvation in their hands. If that is or was really true in the end after we died that would be kind of scary huh? I had one bishop tell me I was not going to heaven at a time I was really trying hard to do what I thought I needed to do. Going to church, praying, etc etc. I am slightly confused why people go to bishops to have a bishop tell them they aren’t going to heaven. Doesn’t it make you feel bad? Plus bishops don’t know everything right? Only God knows our hearts and can understand everything. Is there anything you want to do in regards to visiting teaching? I know from being visit taught that it doesn’t feel good when you feel like the other person is just there out of obligation. I feel like saying or wish I could tell them not to bother and that they can just lie and say they did it. A couple examples is like if someone is in their car and driving and your visiting teacher calls and your trying to pick your daughter up from school and they are sharing the message as fast as they can and talking extremely fast even though you said you couldn’t talk. Or I have had someone just leave something on the door and they barely knock so softly and you feel like they actually did not want you to hear them at the door and then you go to the door and they are down the street. It also doesn’t feel good when someone is or pretends to be your friend for 2 months and then you get a new visiting teacher and your old one never says hi and seems to care less about you.
I would think about if you want to do anything for the people your supposed to visit teach and just be real. If you don’t want to visit teach don’t. If you want to call and say hi then call and say hi and don’t worry about what anyone else tells you to do or not do. You decide if and how you want to help others and why. I hope that makes some sense? As to what to say when they call and ask if you did any visiting teaching I have no idea what you would say? That would be a little hard though to answer. I really wonder what you could say? Is it a big deal to say no? I am not sure..
Also, maybe you can do something fun or come up with some idea that would make you look forward to visiting with the people your supposed to see? I see no problem with meeting up for ice cream or pizza or something like that. Maybe you can try to make it work for you.
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