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This is sort of a piggy back on lookinghard’s post about FC and the 6th sense. I sent an email to my Stake Presidency the other week with some materials about working with people going through a faith crisis. I hadn’t heard a peep from them until yesterday in Stake PEC when we discussed “faith crisis” and those struggling for a good 20 minutes. They were discussing the stake speaking topic for Feb (Trust your Testimony) and the first counselor asked me to comment about it. I wasn’t really prepared to comment but shared that I have had quite a few friends go through this process and the outcomes are mixed. Some have left, some had stayed, but a few things I have learned is that people just need space to process, they need to know that we love them regardless of what they decide to do, that sometimes the “I know” culture of the church can be very hard for people going through this and it can drive them away and make them feel like they don’t belong. And the issues they are wrestling with are real. I wasn’t as articulate as I wish i had been because I wasn’t expecting to discuss this at all. But it led to some good discussion and there was certainly more love than condemnation. There were some comments about people just needing to read their scriptures and praying more, but overall a healthy debate. One of my fellow HC’s made a comment about the current generation having such access to information being raised by a generation who didn’t have to deal with any of this and we can’t put our head in the sand.
The SP said he felt he knew some things but that we mostly walk by faith and he has questions he would like answered in the next life because he doesn’t understand them. He also made some comments that when they go and visit with the families many of the issues are about the church hiding information, mistakes of leaders. He didn’t brush those issues aside, per say, but he gave very common orthodox answers to the concerns, the church is perfect but people are not. The church didn’t hide anything on purpose, it was more that they didn’t feel those things were necessary or needed. He asks the families to think about anything that the church teaches that would make their family worse, and most of the time the person/s have a hard time responding in the negative, but still have a hard time accepting the church as the one true church. He was very respectful, very loving as he talked about this. I truly saw a man who loves the members of his stake, and though he doesn’t understand, he truly wants people to be happy and be their best selves.
I left the meeting feeling joy, joy that I could maybe have a small part in being a part of the discussion, that maybe I can have a small part to play in helping others in my stake who are struggling. Out of all this, i started talking with a fellow HC, which because of some of his comments from this discussion I suspected might be a more nuanced believer, and we talked for a good hour and though he and I are not entirely on the same page, we are not too far apart either. He is much better at hiding his unorthodoxy than I am, he said he knew I was not quite in the mainstream a minute into my first meeting with the high council (though I have never been very good at hiding how I feel about things).
I was also sitting on the stand next to a member of the bishopric and he asked me what I thought about the church’s press release this week, before I could fully respond he basically said, we should just quit worrying about gay marriage. Let’s make the tent as big as possible (I was very surprised, thought I have been surprised a lot lately).
It was an interesting day, I was away from my family all day, but I felt good about the time away, I felt a part of the community yesterday not apart from it.
So baby steps…baby steps.
Thanks for sharing, this is good to hear. :thumbup: Cool. Thanks for sharing and thanks for giving a voice to the voiceless.
Thanks for sharing and glad it went pretty well. I truly believe this thinking is permeating, in different degrees, throughout the church. My discussions with friends and family members is similar. There are good people in the church, and we try to make sense of the things we become aware of.
But clearly…it is not really accepted anymore to just say “Don’t look at any website other than LDS.org”. I was told this many times in 2008 and 2009, and I believe things have changed the past 5 years in the church.
And the church is changing, albeit slowly.
Because there are good people in the church who are not idiots. And I think everyone can see that “hiding” things is not a mature approach. Let’s get things out in the open, address the emotional component of things, and move on providing a faithful view that can work.
I truly believe most bishops and SPs come from a place of love in their hearts to try to do what is right, even more so than demanding obedience at all costs.
It is what I love about our church. Good people trying to do what is right and trying to love others.
I think I can hang on patiently, realizing the things that bother me in church will come around with change. Call it “God guiding the church” or just “Good people coming to their senses” …. but the church focuses on trying to help people become better. As long as that is their focus…things will change and things will improve…as they have done for over 180years in the church.
I don’t want to hijack this thread, but we also had a conversation like this in PEC, with a bit of a twist. I want to emphasize upfront that the conversation was generally good and positive. The person who brought this up was concerned with an individual who is very vocal about his views on sexism, gay rights, etc. – many of the hot button issues. The concern was his vociferousness in the class setting – SS/PH/RS. Frankly I hadn’t looked at the issue from this point of view before as I have been more interested in and acquainted with the silent minority (those who have such opinions but don’t share them publicly). The question was how to constructively deal with this person. There was no mention that people thought he was apostate or of church discipline, but there is concern that there might be an impact on those with weaker testimonies and visitors/investigators. While I did take part in the discussion, none of us really had any solutions. After a lengthy discussion we decided to discuss it further at a future meeting (this one already went an hour over and we weren’t reaching any solutions). What are your thoughts? How should church leaders deal with someone like this?
The only thing I can think of is to see if it can be figured out what the motivations are on the “vociferousness”. Do they feel they are not being validated so they keep ramping up the volume? If that is the case, maybe a talk in sacrament from the bishop or a HC on the last few weeks of statements coming from the 1Pres and Q12. Emphasize that we are all allowed to come to our conclusions on topics, and the most important thing to do in the church is accepting (not agreeing with) other points of view without ANYBODY attacking each other. Maybe a hint that the Brother Vociferous’s views can be expressed, but not pushed on others as THE way. Others can have and share their view and not tell Brother V he is wrong. I am wondering if Bro V would moderate a bit if he got back an “I understand your point of view” rather than either silence or others convincing him he is wrong. LookingHard wrote:The only thing I can think of is to see if it can be figured out what the motivations are on the “vociferousness”. Do they feel they are not being validated so they keep ramping up the volume? If that is the case, maybe a talk in sacrament from the bishop or a HC on the last few weeks of statements coming from the 1Pres and Q12. Emphasize that we are all allowed to come to our conclusions on topics, and the most important thing to do in the church is accepting (not agreeing with) other points of view without ANYBODY attacking each other. Maybe a hint that the Brother Vociferous’s views can be expressed, but not pushed on others as THE way. Others can have and share their view and not tell Brother V he is wrong. I am wondering if Bro V would moderate a bit if he got back an “I understand your point of view” rather than either silence or others convincing him he is wrong.
I’ve only encountered the guy once, I don’t visit there often. This did not happen when I visited, maybe the lesson topic wasn’t a hot button for him (I don’t recall what it was, it was several months ago) but I did immediately know who was being talked about. His name was never mentioned, although it was pretty clear everyone in the room knew who it was. Maybe who it is isn’t so important to the conversation, anyway.
Your insight does serve you well, young padawan. For the most part it is my understanding that people of the ward either don’t say anything, say something along the lines of “thank you for sharing,” or agree with him. I think he is very aware of what the Q15 are saying, and I think he’s at least somewhat careful not to cross any lines from expressing an opinion to speaking against church leadership. That can be a fine line, but I think his ward is liberal enough that they’re not of a mind to make it more than it is. The HC that brought this up is on the moderate side, so I don’t think he is pushing for anything. I think he asked a good question and I think it led to some very good discussion – but no solutions.
No one comes to PH wanting to hear someone express bitter feelings about their pet issues Sunday after Sunday. They come to hear someone read the next paragraph in the Teachings of the Presidents manual. 
nibbler wrote:No one comes to PH wanting to hear someone express bitter feelings about their pet issues Sunday after Sunday. They come to hear someone read the next paragraph in the Teachings of the Presidents manual.
I agree that’s true for the most part. I think quite a few might be interested in discussing things a bit deeper than we usually do (without the standard SS answers), but not necessarily in the way this guy does because I think it’s seen as more negative. Hence the concern on the part of my colleague.
nibbler wrote:No one comes to PH wanting to hear someone express bitter feelings about their pet issues Sunday after Sunday. They come to hear someone read the next paragraph in the Teachings of the Presidents manual.
First off, Nibbler, I miss your old avatar of Nibbler.:thumbdown: Second, this is so true in our ward. Rarely is anything stated that is not in the manual. The only interesting lessons are the ones that are taught on the 1st and 4th Sundays, and that’s being generous with the term “interesting”. I’m too chicken to bring up anything even remotely controversial. This is why I only attend Sacrament Meeting most of the time.
:silent: BTW – Glad to hear you had a nice experience SBR. We (my wife and I) had a good one a while ago. The Bishop called me and my wife in to discuss a possibel calling for my wife who is now basically inactive. They called her to be a young womens advisor, and she said no. She said that she wasn’t in a place where she could tell the girls to do things that she didn’t believe in anymore. He didn’t lay on a guilt trip. He just thanked her for beilng honest and that he thought that it might be a good fit, but respected her decision.
DarkJedi wrote:I don’t want to hijack this thread, but we also had a conversation like this in PEC, with a bit of a twist. I want to emphasize upfront that the conversation was generally good and positive.
The person who brought this up was concerned with an individual who is very vocal about his views on sexism, gay rights, etc. – many of the hot button issues. The concern was his vociferousness in the class setting – SS/PH/RS. Frankly I hadn’t looked at the issue from this point of view before as I have been more interested in and acquainted with the silent minority (those who have such opinions but don’t share them publicly). The question was how to constructively deal with this person. There was no mention that people thought he was apostate or of church discipline, but there is concern that there might be an impact on those with weaker testimonies and visitors/investigators. While I did take part in the discussion, none of us really had any solutions. After a lengthy discussion we decided to discuss it further at a future meeting (this one already went an hour over and we weren’t reaching any solutions). What are your thoughts? How should church leaders deal with someone like this?
Really good question, and I don’t have a good answer. I haven’t thought about it enough yet and haven’t experienced it yet.
I don’t think there will be an easy solution. We want people to come to church, but only if they act in a certain way, and often for many people, that act of having to be silent can be so suffocating. Yet at the same time when the conversations and discussions start getting below the surface I think people appreciate it.
So maybe it is that Brother V just needs someone to acknowledge to him, hey I get it. I don’t disagree with you. Here’s how I see the situation, do you think there is a different way to get your point across?
Like my answer to most things these days, I don’t know. I’ll have to think about it some more.
Meh Mormon wrote:First off, Nibbler, I miss your old avatar of Nibbler.
:thumbdown: The old avatar will come back shortly. The avatar change is only temporary. The change is to mark an event that carries some personal meaning.
DarkJedi wrote:What are your thoughts? How should church leaders deal with someone like this?
I admire the strong leaders who tell the active members to strengthen the testimonies of others, instead of remove a squeaky wheel so we don’t have to be uncomfortable.
If someone comes to the bishop complaining someone else might hurt their testimony or the testimony of others, then teach correct principles and teach how to handle opposition. It is kind of like teaching a person to fish, so they can better handle opposition in the future on their own, rather than give them the fish and fix it for them, leaving them weak and dependent still.
Why can’t anyone say anything in a SS class? Why should we fear the vociferousness?
Anyone passionate enough to vocalize and question can have passion to build up the kingdom if included in zion, not shunned. Or at the very least, it lets us know what that person is passionate about so we might serve and love and understand them. Not tell them to quiet down, that their feelings don’t matter.
The Lord’s example on the woman brought in sin as a problem to be “fixed” was the best response…
Quote:John 8:7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
He was trying to teach them all to look inwardly to resolve differences, not outwardly ask the church or an authority figure to fix the problem for them.The context is different with a disruptive personality vs sin, but to me, the approach is the same. We don’t need to make the sinner pay, or remove the differing views shared. Active members need to be shaken sometimes, they need to be ruffled, they need conflict in the midst…if they are to learn true charity and love for their neighbors. They can’t learn it as well without some discomfort and hard situations.
That is what the PEC discussion should be about, if a strong bishop is able to be a true shepherd.
I want to add that one of the most positive things I got from the meeting was the acknowledgement that there really isn’t any forum in the church to allow Brother V and those like him to express their thoughts and have meaningful discussion. The clerk only put a few comments in the minutes, this one made it.
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