Progression across Kingdoms?

[Anonymous]

I was wondering how those of you who think there is likely progression across kingdoms, respond to this very final-sounding passage from the Book of Mormon… Particularly Ray…not as a challenge, but I would like to hear your interpretation. I can’t seem to parse much out of it that makes it no longer sound that if you blow it in this life, you pretty much blow it in the next.

Quote:

32 For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors.

33 And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed.

34 Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.

35 For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked.

I also agree with Nibbler that if there is progression across Kingdoms, it sort of takes the urgency out of righteousness in this life, except for its own sake….It also makes it less desireable to jump through all the Church hoops, but because you can say “I’ll do what I think is best now, and commit when I see more evidence after death of the church’s truthfulness and its implications”

[Anonymous]

I think those verses focus on the type of spirit one develops – the type of person one becomes.

I see no conflict between that concept and seeing life beyond this mortal existence as continuing to include growth until one enters godhood (ultimate adulthood, in a way).

[Anonymous]

Old-Timer wrote:

I think those verses focus on the type of spirit one develops – the type of person one becomes.

I see no conflict between that concept and seeing life beyond this mortal existence as continuing to include growth until one enters godhood (ultimate adulthood, in a way).

How about the phrase “this is the final state fo the wicked” in the last scripture quote above? Again, this is not a challenge, I am actually trying to access your interpretation for understanding.

[Anonymous]

We watched the movie “Interstellar” which gets into space travel and time and space physics theories. Total SciFi.

But…did make me think how much we see our existence in a 3D setting and point of view. If there is a 5th dimension or something like that, which totally changes our concepts of eternity and time and progression….it could change the whole concept of heaven and kingdoms which doesn’t make our current teachings “wrong”…just the way it is taught with our current understanding.

One question I have always had: How does God prevent progression across Kingdoms?

[Anonymous]

I have no problem believing that there are some people who will become truly wicked and that they will remain so eternally. It is why I don’t reject the concept of Lucifer being literal, even though I think it is more powerful as a symbol of the need to fight wickedness generally, especially in ourselves.

I just think that will be tiny group, when all is said and done.

[Anonymous]

We are taught in the temple that we currently are living in the telestial world. Not terrestrial as some have previously stated, we are in the telestial. I don’t have my scriptures handy, but think about it. The telestial kingdom is a kingdom of murderers, adulterers, fornicators, and the like. We currently live in this type of kingdom. If our spirits do not change when we are here upon the Earth, we become earthbound. The vibrational frequency of our soul does not allow us to ascend to other kingdoms.

Study NDE’s (Near Death Experiences). George Ritchie’s experience in Return from Tomorrow verifies existence of the telestial kingdom. He was taken by his spirit guide into a bar where he was shown Navy men drinking hard liquor. Disembodied spirits were sitting next to men at the bar, striving to grasp the glasses of liquor to no avail. They were anguished (think wailing and gnashing of teeth) because they could not satisfy their thirst for the drink. At one point he saw a man get up from a seat at the bar, stagger, and then fall to the ground. When he did, a portal opened up at the top of his head and a disembodied spirit jumped in (think of the spirits cast out of the man by Jesus who said their name was Legion).

The more I study NDE’s, the more I understand why the church stresses so importantly the basic principles of the gospel to encourage us to live good lives. They want all of us to end up in the terrestrial or celestial kingdoms after we pass away.

I believe that the terrestrial kingdom is the spirit world described by many LDS and non-LDS who have ventured there.

As for progression across kingdoms…someone cited opinions of men revered as prophets, seers, and revelators. What do we learn in the temple? There will be many willing to preach to you the philosophies of men mingled with scripture. That is very prevalent today in the LDS church. There are some things that we just do not know and I believe this to be one of them.

I also believe that we don’t live just one life. It doesn’t make any sense to me. It is more likely to me that I have lived previous lives before this one and I will continue to do so after this life as often as I want to. I believe that we have the opportunity to incarnate again if we choose to do so to learn other lessons not learned during this lifetime. Of course, the veil of forgetfulness is dropped over our minds once again, so we remember nothing of our previous lives.

This is all merely my opinion with over 10 years of research into NDE’s. I admit that I may be wrong.

[Anonymous]

Heber13 wrote:

We watched the movie “Interstellar” which gets into space travel and time and space physics theories. Total SciFi.

I came away with the understanding that the worst thing in the world (or beyond this world) would be that of being totally alone. (spoiler alert) The one guy on the cold planet sent the signal that his planet was good, just to have someone come visit him. Then the dad was trying so hard to communicate back to his daughter so he wouldn’t be left all alone. It made me think that the only “bad” place would be an outer darkness being all alone and no end in sight.

[Anonymous]

Heber13 wrote:

One question I have always had: How does God prevent progression across Kingdoms?

I dont’ think he would prevent personal progression in terms of character, and perhaps even ability within most contexts, but I think he could create a physical barrier between one kingdom and the next, the same way he has created a barrier between us and the afterlife — the only way we can get there is to die, and without eternal bodies, that won’t be possible.

[Anonymous]

nednickerson wrote:

There are some things that we just do not know and I believe this to be one of them.

I agree Ned. We don’t know. I suppose this discussion is to flesh out the acceptable ranges of opinions on the subject. As a Mormon that has had a crisis of faith sometimes it really helps me to look at our unique LDS doctrines in a somewhat different light. There truly has been a wide range of ideas taught by various leaders across the length of our history. By exploring the boundaries of this range and listening to my inner spirit to ascertain what “feels right” to me, I can “stayLDS” even if I do not believe exactly as most of my ward members do.

nednickerson wrote:

I also believe that we don’t live just one life. It doesn’t make any sense to me. It is more likely to me that I have lived previous lives before this one and I will continue to do so after this life as often as I want to. I believe that we have the opportunity to incarnate again if we choose to do so to learn other lessons not learned during this lifetime. Of course, the veil of forgetfulness is dropped over our minds once again, so we remember nothing of our previous lives.

That would be a really cool approach to eternal progression. I wonder would we get better at life the more times we went through it or would we continue to muddle through?

SilentDawning wrote:

I dont’ think he would prevent personal progression in terms of character, and perhaps even ability within most contexts, but I think he could create a physical barrier between one kingdom and the next, the same way he has created a barrier between us and the afterlife — the only way we can get there is to die, and without eternal bodies, that won’t be possible.

I remember leaving GC as a missionary and feeling really inspired. I saw people out mowing their lawns and it struck me that they are oblivious that a prophet of God just spoke to the world. There was a barrier between us even though it was not a physical one. Is it possible that the differences in the kingdoms are entirely internal and that members of each of the three kingdoms could inhabit the same household, comingle and more or less get along? Perhaps the “kingdom” you inhabit is the state of your heart.

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