Promises Promises

[Anonymous]

Quote:

The Lord’s countless exceeding great and precious promises include forgiveness of our sins when we “confess them and forsake them” (D&C 58:43; see also D&C 1:32). Opening the windows of heaven is a promise claimed by those who pay a faithful tithe (see Malachi 3:10), and finding “great treasures of knowledge” accrues to those who observe the Word of Wisdom (D&C 89:19).

Becoming unspotted from the world is a promise to those who keep the Sabbath holy (see D&C 59:9; Exodus 31:13). Divine guidance and inspiration are promised to those who “feast upon the words of Christ” (2 Nephi 32:3) and who “liken all scriptures” unto themselves (1 Nephi 19:23).

The Lord also promised that “whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, which is right, believing that ye shall receive, behold it shall be given unto you” (3 Nephi 18:20). We are promised that the Holy Ghost will be our constant companion when we “let virtue garnish [our] thoughts unceasingly” (see D&C 121:45–46). We can claim the spiritually liberating promise of fasting, which will “loose the bands of wickedness,” undo our “heavy burdens,” and “break every yoke” (Isaiah 58:6).

Those who are sealed in holy temples and who faithfully keep their covenants will receive God’s glory, which “shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever” (D&C 132:19).

Sometimes, in our earthly impatience, we may lose sight of the Lord’s precious promises and disconnect our obedience from the fulfillment of these promises.

Oct 2007, Spencer Condie

What do you make of these promises? Do you think they are something you can bet on 100% of the time, or are they worded in a way that it is common sense, or is it tied to obedience which gives the out (if the promise doesn’t happen, its your fault)?

What do you do when someone promises you things will work if you obey?

[Anonymous]

the problem with a top-down designed universe and hierarchal model of ‘the way things work’, is the idea that life is a deterministic paradigm. Everything happens by god’s design, and therefore, benefits and blessings are doled out based upon obedience to abstract principles and commandments.

LDS Scriptures are full of this promise:

2 Nephi 1:20 wrote:

And he hath said that: Inasmuch as ye shall keep my commandments ye shall prosper in the land; but inasmuch as ye will not keep my commandments ye shall be cut off from my presence.

Ok — that means that prosperity is equated with obedience. Yet, bad people prosper all the time, and good people often do not prosepr in the land. I’m not sure the correlation is there, yet, in Doctrine and Covenants:

Doctrine & Covenants 82:10 wrote:

I, the Lord, am bound when ye do what I say; but when ye do not what I say, ye have no promise.

The promise of blessings as a direct result of obedience to law is absolute and reflexive. If I obey the law, I will be blessed with a corresponding blessing. And by the reflexive aspect of this law: If I receive the blessing, then I must have obeyed the corresponding law. The reflexivity of the law of obedience is found here:

Doctrine & Covenants 130:20-21 wrote:

There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.

By the definition of the book of mormon, prosperity is the blessing corresponding to keeping the commandments. Because it is reflexive, it must mean that the Marriotts, Romneys, and Huntsmans are all more righteous than me because they certainly are more prosperous in the land. I wonder if that is the litmus test for church leadership at the highest levels.

One thing I have learned in all my wayfaring through faith systems: The laws of this world are not deterministic, but rather tendential. There is no concept that obedience to some principle corresponds directly into some blessing and vice versa. Even in karmic belief systems, the sins of a past life do not adequately explain the circumstances of this — it’s a lot more random than that. In chaos theory, the idea of a butterfly batting it’s wings causing a hurricane elsewhere in a few weeks depends upon finite deterministic rules and laws: rigid formulas of dependency whereby a minor alteration of one variable, the butterfly batting its wings causes a massive cascade of very deterministic events to cause a hurricane.

This isn’t how nature works. Nature is not deterministic, it’s tendential. it makes mistakes, and in the mistakes, progress happens. The beauty in nature isn’t in the consistency to finite, derministic laws, but rather, the idea that tendencies do not rigidly bind the outcome, but rather allow for variation and compensation. Each snowflake is wonderfully different, but almost all of them correspond to a 6-sided shape of some sort — this is tendency, not determinism.

Curiously, the idea of mistakes is inherent in the plan of salvation. The plan of determism was rejected. Instead, the real plan of salvation has much more to do with the compensating factor of the atonement to make things right.

[Anonymous]

The promises are slippery.

1) Dependence on obedience (does anyone ever have virtuous thoughts unceasingly? sounds like a no win to me)

2) Ambiguity in exactly what will be given (For example – what does it mean to open the windows of heaven or find great treasures of knowledge?)

3) Ambiguity in exactly what is required (What does it mean to liken the scriptures to myself, feast upon the word, or keep the Sabbath holy?)

4) Ambiguity in when these promises will be fulfilled (the quote talks about earthly patience, but there is no timeline…the promises may be fulfilled in this life or the next).

I did believe that I and my family would be blessed and protected for my faithful priesthood service. After my fall, I felt betrayed. I started examining these promises to pinpoint exactly where I had been lied to. Upon close inspection the promises slipped through my fingers like so much sand.

In the end I was left with a feeling that God loves me … and promises me / owes me nothing. Like Job of old – “The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away.”

So my own little take on this would be, “What does God owe you?”

[Anonymous]

I think these types of promised generally are accurate – when applied to civilizations and societies. I don’t believe they are anywhere near always accurate when applied to individuals. I see a HUGE difference between them when applied in those two very different ways.

[Anonymous]

I don’t know…I tend to agree with Ray. Those uncategorical promises of blessings for obedience are dangerous. They certainly “sell well” when you hear them in a talk, or in a missionary discussion when you’re trying to convince an investigator about something, but in practice, do they even happen?

I think Ray is close — that they might apply to civilizations but not individuals. I’m not even completely convinced if they apply to civilizations — how might you measure whether they apply to civilizations? It’s the nature of all things to be cyclical — all thing — just because you are righteous or unrighteous doesnt’ seem to equate with prosperity; cycles tend to drive the blessings in my view.

[Anonymous]

when i was fully active and my adult daughters were younger i was one who tried to do all those things that a typical temple recommend holder would do.

what was neat about my experience back then was that i felt blessings were at my finger tips. i was out walking with my daughters from their place and they were misbehaving. i was feeling a little overwhelmed and didn’t know quite how to handle the situation and i felt a blessing come. i don’t know what it was but it was like God was here handing me a blessing and whatever i said or did calmed my daughters down and they behaved.

Mike

[Anonymous]

SilentDawning wrote:

They certainly “sell well” when you hear them in a talk, or in a missionary discussion when you’re trying to convince an investigator about something, but in practice, do they even happen?

now, wait a minute…

Are we saying the church is “selling” something that won’t be true? That doesn’t sound honest.

[Anonymous]

It’s only dishonest if those preaching it don’t believe it. That’s really important to remember.

I’ve been in direct sales of one sort or another for over 15 years. Education itself is sales of ideas, in a very real way. Parenting is sales, as well. Sales is not a bad thing at all; it’s part and parcel of life. It’s hypocrisy, coercion, selfish manipulation, etc. that make sales “bad” and “dishonest”.

As I said, I believe there is validity in the idea of “prospering in the land” when applied to groups of people – largely because I believe hard work, sharing of resources, unselfishness, etc. (true Zion) really is a direct result of “keeping the commandments” (at least, keeping the two main commandments on which everything else hangs) and “living the Gospel”. It’s when it gets applied to individuals that it goes all haywire, imo – but that’s a seductive, compelling distortion for individuals who crave security and are prone to pride. That’s most people, frankly, so I understand why and how the distortion occurs.

[Anonymous]

Old-Timer wrote:

It’s only dishonest if those preaching it don’t believe it. That’s really important to remember.

I’ve been in direct sales of one sort or another for over 15 years. Education itself is sales of ideas, in a very real way. Parenting is sales, as well. Sales is not a bad thing at all; it’s part and parcel of life. It’s hypocrisy, coercion, selfish manipulation, etc. that make sales “bad” and “dishonest”.

As I said, I believe there is validity in the idea of “prospering in the land” when applied to groups of people – largely because I believe hard work, sharing of resources, unselfishness, etc. (true Zion) really is a direct result of “keeping the commandments” (at least, keeping the two main commandments on which everything else hangs) and “living the Gospel”. It’s when it gets applied to individuals that it goes all haywire, imo – but that’s a seductive, compelling distortion for individuals who crave security and are prone to pride. That’s most people, frankly, so I understand why and how the distortion occurs.

I agree that almost nobody in the church is being intentionally misleading. They could point to any and all good things in their life as evidence that the promises are personal, quantifiable, and sure. So much hinges on perspective.

I also understand Ray’s perspective about individual vs. societal promises. Unfortunately it just adds yet another wrinkle in the promise fulfillment slippery slope. 5) Ambiguity about who these promises are directed to (individuals or whole societies).

I think Wayfarer hit it on the head when he said that the correlation is tendential. If an individual or society attempts to live the gospel principles (all other variables being equal), the individual or society will tend to be more successful than by not following these precepts. But the gospel living individual is just as susceptible to getting struck by lightning and the society is just as prone to getting hit by a devastating earthquake and tsunami as they would be without the gospel. (Maybe the gospel will help the family of the righteous individual through their grief or help the devastated nation pull together and move forward after the disaster)

But there are still scripture stories that seem to imply that these promises apply to both individuals and nations and that they will secure some sort of miraculous protection through faithfulness. Sure, I was gullible and prideful. I ate it up. JS could have had 100 wives as far as I was concerned as long as I, through him, could hold the power of heaven to call down blessings upon my family. This worked out great for the first 30 years of my life and I wish that I could have held onto it forever. But alas, I was struck by that proverbial lightning and left wondering what I had done wrong.

[Anonymous]

Heber13 wrote:

Quote:

The Lord’s countless exceeding great and precious promises include forgiveness of our sins when we “confess them and forsake them” (D&C 58:43; see also D&C 1:32). Opening the windows of heaven is a promise claimed by those who pay a faithful tithe (see Malachi 3:10), and finding “great treasures of knowledge” accrues to those who observe the Word of Wisdom (D&C 89:19).

Sometimes, in our earthly impatience, we may lose sight of the Lord’s precious promises and disconnect our obedience from the fulfillment of these promises.

Oct 2007, Spencer Condie

What do you make of these promises? Do you think they are something you can bet on 100% of the time, or are they worded in a way that it is common sense, or is it tied to obedience which gives the out (if the promise doesn’t happen, its your fault)?…What do you do when someone promises you things will work if you obey?

Personally I think these promised blessings and rewards tied to obedience and threats about what will supposedly happen if we disobey are some of the worst ideas the Church continues to focus on. What happens if there is no God or if God doesn’t really care that much about making sure everyone gets all the blessings they think they deserve? It is bad enough when the Church leaders try to insist that what happens after we die will supposedly make any sacrifices we are asked to endure to end worth it (we don’t really know that) but when they make so many unfounded claims about the way things are supposed to work in this life then people can easily look around and see a world that often does not remotely resemble what they say we should expect to find.

My own experience so far has been almost the exact opposite of what I heard about repeatedly at church because the more obedient I was to the Church’s long list of requirements the more I suffered and when I paid less attention to what the Church says I actually felt better most of the time. In my opinion, the current tithing doctrine is a prime example where blind obedience is not necessarily good for anyone or anything whether the individual, the Church as a group, or the larger society. Basically, the Church continues to collect more money than they know what to do with mostly because too many leaders have bought into this idea that you don’t need to see the benefits directly to believe that God owes it to Church members to reward them for all their faith and good intentions because the Bible and previous LDS Church leaders said so therefore paying tithing is supposedly for Church members’ own good.

I actually believe there is some correlation between character and relative success but I think it is more about probability than any absolute certainties. Basically, I think that if you keep pushing your luck with a complete lack of discipline and common sense then there’s a good chance it will catch up with you eventually. Maybe this is what continues to fuel this myth that obedience always leads to prosperity; for example maybe something like above average discipline, optimism, motivation, etc. is what allows some Church members to be able to pay tithing and strictly obey the WoW as long as they believe they should and these same traits also help them to achieve relative success in life instead of it being case of something like tithing being the direct cause of their success. However, if people see or experience both at the same time then sometimes there is a tendency to make false associations between them.

[Anonymous]

Well, good points about this topic so far.

So…the well-known Mormon promise is Moroni 10:3-5 to “manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost”

This is clearly a promise for the individual and an specific situation. It is predicated on a sincere heart, real intent, and faith to receive the promised answer.

Do you have a problem with this promise?

[Anonymous]

No, since “faith” is so nebulous and doesn’t require an explicit manifestation of some kind. I also like that there is no description of HOW the Holy Ghost will manifest it to any given indivdual – and I believe there are plenty of exceptions to every rule. (Iow, people whose experiences will not match the rule, even if all the conditions are met exactly.)

Iow, I can take even a seemingly straightforward statement like that and read it much more loosely than many others do – and I’m fine with that.

[Anonymous]

Heber13 wrote:

So…the well-known Mormon promise is Moroni 10:3-5 to “manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost”

This is clearly a promise for the individual and an specific situation. It is predicated on a sincere heart, real intent, and faith to receive the promised answer.

I remember talking about a Mormon myth with my MTC zone. I was telling them that a particular story was a myth. One Elder became very defensive, told me that he had heard the story from his SP and felt the confirmation of the spirit and he would believe them over me any day of the week. This stopped me cold, but the thing is that it was a myth that is actually debunked on one of those Mormon myth websites and that the church itself has long since moved on.

So, I’m not sold on the Holy Spirit being the source of all truth.

Old-Timer wrote:

I also like that there is no description of HOW the Holy ghost will manifest it to any given individual

Agreed, the Holy Spirit can touch an individual in diverse ways and it is often left to the individual themselves to label what they felt as from the Holy Spirit or not. Unfortunately, this is one promise where others assume that if you didn’t get the “right” answer than you did it wrong, or lacked something. If you get cancer, people don’t usually assume that you broke the WOW or failed to honor your parents. If you lose your job, people don’t typically jump to the conclusion that you ceased paying your tithing with a cheerful heart. But with this promise being so specific and certain – the only conclusion many draw is that the individual was deficient in the request.

Don’t know what we could do about that. It is rather central to our message. That if the entire world prayed at the same time to know if the BOM was true, then all those that had done so with sincere heart, real intent, and faith would receive the answer that it is true. It stands to reason that any persons that don’t immediately join our church must have been lacking in at least one of the three critical elements.

[Anonymous]

Moroni’s promise was the deciding factor for my husband finally leaving the lds church after trying for 30 years. My husband joined the lds church after I met him on an intellectual testimony. He really liked alot of the rational theology in the church. He had faith that the spiritual confirmation would come later. So, he read the book of Mormon many times. Fasted and prayed so sincerely many times to get that spiritual witness. He did not expect anything grandious, but the type of testimony that Peter had in the Bible when Jesus asked him, “Who do you say I am.” All he wanted was this assuredness feeling, where he just knew and no longer doubted. It did not come after trying the first 10 years of our marriage. A bishop then asked him to become a ward missionary and promised him that if he just went ahead and did it, his testimony would come when the time came to bear witness of the Book of Mormon to an investigator. He accepted the calling in hopes that would happen. After trying 3 months, he asked to be released because it never happened.

He still wanted to believe and because he respected Paul H. Dunn so much, he relied on his testimony. That came crashing down for him when he found out about Brother Dunn’s fabricated stories. He told me that if a Elder Dunn could fabricate his spiritual experiences, how do I know that JS did not fabricate his; I cannot do this anymore without my own personal confirmation and so he left the church. So many leaders in our wards would give answers like, “Oh, you know the church is true, you just don’t know that you know.” Or, you are just not humble enough, etc. etc. He did not feel unworthy or insincere. When we moved here to Florida and that bishop would not help us move in unless we had a strong testimony of the church, my husband was upset and called him. He explained his story to this bishop and this bishop told him that anyone that does not get a testimony of the book of Mormon in a short time is just talking themselves out of it. Well, that was it for my husband.

One general authority did tell my husband that some just don’t get an answer and he does not know why. That was at least honest. I recall when I was in a fast and testimony meeting at BYU many years ago, that a guy bore his testimony about being a preacher in another church once and he had read the BofM and tried MOroni’s promise. He was told NO, to not leave his church. Years later, he was told yes to join the Mormon church. Who knows why things happen the way they do, but each person has to follow his own impressions and find out where they lead. If they bear fruit, it must be good.

[Anonymous]

Somewhat tangential to Moroni’s promise:

I went to a non-LDS Easter service, very moving. At the end the pastor stood up and said that what we were feeling was not the result of an emotional response to the music or the program or the testimonies. It was not a mental manipulation of the psyche but an actual manifestation of the living Christ, evidence of His presence and His approval of the work going forward.

Just sayin’ the LDS aren’t the only ones. We do tend to take it to the next level, however.

[Author]

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