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Sometimes I feel like the church has changed so much to accomodate converts that it has become a different church and I no longer belong. All of my ancestors were Mormons. One ancestor even goes back to 1831. Many of my ancestors were polygamous. Sometimes I feel like the religion is being Protestanized. People want to deny our history, they want to say God is all powerful instead of one of many Gods, they want to do away with the word Mormon. Once in my ward a person asked me how I knew a girl in the ward. I told them it was because we have common ancestors through polygamy and they freaked. I am more Mormon than Hinckley or Monson by geneology. I also feel there is too much hypocracy when it comes to temple recommends. Too many people ignorantly say they are worthy and then look down on others and they do not even realize they too are unworthy. I also do not like intellectuals being persecuted in the church. Joseph Smith and Brigham Young may have done wrong things. People in the bible did wrong things. Why can’t we deal with it. I also think the church needs to confront the Evangelicals in Utah. Ignoring them is stupid. Ok that is my introduction. Welcome. I hope you find many friends here. Hi, utahdane. Learning to relate positively even while you have that clear view that all is not what it seems to be is what we are all about. Personally, I hope I am stretching upward to the light so the church can continue to be a positive influence for me as I become a more positive influence in the church. Feel free to share with us books and experiences that you have found helpful as you have sought to see clearly the humanity and divinity of it all. And if you just have issues you want to discuss in a non-threatening forum, that’s okay too. We are collectively aware of many of the issues, and we are always open to hearing your perspectives and the things that mean most to you.
Tom
utahdane wrote:Sometimes I feel like the church has changed so much to accomodate converts that it has become a different church and I no longer belong. All of my ancestors were Mormons.
Welcome utahdane.
All my ancestors were Mormons too, since the Martin handcart company. But I haven’t ever lived in Utah except for the BYU days.
I’m interested in some of your thoughts you expressed. Do you feel the church has changed within your lifetime, or do you mean since the beginning of the church? I could see some value in the church evolving in time since it is a living church with prophets to lead the church globally – which is very different from times of my ancestors.
I look forward to learning from your perspectives and experiences!
Welcome to the forum! Welcome! Welcome welcome! I hope we will be able to assist you in your journey. The church has a lot of problems, and a lot of good things. At the end of the day it’s an organization run by men, and there are bound to be mistakes. Hopefully we learn from them rather than repeating them!
It helps me to view the church like a person. It has been growing and moving and adjusting and stumbling since its first beginnings. It has taken the most intense hits since the beginning too. When people take hits, they sometimes act defensively or pull back a bit. Maybe the church has elements of this behavior too. I have looked at these changes and felt alarm too. But I have come to terms with it. I am OK with the changes and the evolution of things. I think that is how progression really looks — not something perfect and untouchable from the first day. It is a stone cut without hands. It is a rough stone rolling, if I might steel that phrase. I think the Lord lets us as individuals struggle with our own weakness and I think He lets the church do the same thing. In my view, the church has grown up a bit with regards to how it does things and how it relates to the world around it and as it learns that it can’t be exclusive if the message is to go thruout the earth. I don’t see the church compromising its doctrinal position though in any degree. I don’t know exactly what you are referring to when you say that the church has become more Protestant. Sometimes I think we can learn much from our Christian brothers…..things that can help us with our own understandings. But that is different than compromising the doctrinal position of the restoration. When we start adopting doctrines like the Trinity, then maybe I might worry about us becoming more protestant.
I know what you mean. My brother in law says that we should never ever say, this is the only true church. He claims it is a total put off. We should say like Pres. Hinckley said, bring all the truth you have and see what we can add to it. But I find it confusing because so many people I talk to believe that anything goes, believe everything if it makes you feel good – even Buddhism. I believe that you have to make a stand sometime and say “there is only one true church” What do you think? I’m the last one to say there’s anything wrong with Buddhism, and I think if you read the teachings of Siddhārtha Gautama (the Bhudda) you will be quite familiar and inspired (even if their art seems a little strange). For example, check out these precepts of Buddhism: Five precepts
1. To refrain from taking life
2. To refrain from taking that which is not freely given (stealing)
3. To refrain from sexual misconduct (improper sexual behavior)
4. To refrain from lying and deceiving
5. To refrain from intoxicants which lead to loss of mindfulness.
Yes. There is just one truth. “Truth is one, the sages speak of it by many names.” a translation of the Rig Vedic saying, “Ekam Sat Vipra Bahuda Vadanthi.”
And there is just one Church of the Firstborn. The question for each of us is, “Am I a member, and if not, how do I join the assembly?” Only heaven can tell us those answers.
victoria wrote:I know what you mean. My brother in law says that we should never ever say, this is the only true church. He claims it is a total put off. We should say like Pres. Hinckley said, bring all the truth you have and see what we can add to it. But I find it confusing because so many people I talk to believe that anything goes, believe everything if it makes you feel good – even Buddhism. I believe that you have to make a stand sometime and say “there is only one true church” What do you think?
I say, the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS is the “only true and living Church upon the earth with which I (God) am well pleased, speaking collectively and not…” etc.Put all the qualifiers on that are contained in the scripture, and I can buy it. Say it the way you did, and there’s not a chance. As Tom H. was saying, this church is a gateway to membership in the Church of the Firstborn. The BoM agrees where it says there are only two churches: The Church of the Lamb of God, and the Church of the Devil. Any group, church or institution that leads one to membership and communion with the CotF, is OK by me!
Just my opinion.
HiJolly
HiJolly wrote:Any group, church or institution that leads one to membership and communion with the CotF, is OK by me!
What a sweet smelling expression that is.
Tom Haws wrote:HiJolly wrote:Any group, church or institution that leads one to membership and communion with the CotF, is OK by me!
What a sweet smelling expression that is.
agreed.
HiJolly wrote:I say, the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS is the “only true and living Church upon the earth with which I (God) am well pleased, speaking collectively and not…” etc. Put all the qualifiers on that are contained in the scripture, and I can buy it.
This I would like to understand. The LDS Church is (in 1830) the ONLY true and living church on the face of the earth with which I the Lord am pleased, speaking to the church collectively and not individually????? The ONLY one on the face of the earth? Man, I don’t even see the LDS Church as the best, or as being or possessing anything special or needful or exemplary. What could you possibly mean? I am clueless. Is there any hope for an explanation?
Tom Haws wrote:HiJolly wrote:I say, the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS is the “only true and living Church upon the earth with which I (God) am well pleased, speaking collectively and not…” etc. Put all the qualifiers on that are contained in the scripture, and I can buy it.
This I would like to understand. The LDS Church is (in 1830) the ONLY true and living church on the face of the earth with which I the Lord am pleased, speaking to the church collectively and not individually????? The ONLY one on the face of the earth? Man, I don’t even see the LDS Church as the best, or as being or possessing anything special or needful or exemplary. What could you possibly mean? I am clueless. Is there any hope for an explanation?
How about, “Is there any hope for an explanation that I can accept?”👿 Probably not. But I’m not motivated by the hope that I’ll convince anyone. I’m just saying what I’m thinking for me.I’m not saying it’s the only Church that can help people grow closer to God. I’m not saying it’s members are the only people that can be “exalted”. I’m not saying it’s the only priesthood out there.
I think the context is other organized religious movements in the region/country in the day. So I don’t think that this revelation applied to Buddhism, Taoism, Shinto, or even Shamanism. I think it was intended to be relevant within the realm of Christianity. But since I didn’t receive the revelation myself, there is an ambiguity that can’t be resolved. But here are some options:
First view: “Hey, I (God) am happy with what you guys are doing. Keep it up. And so you’ll take heart with all the sacrifices and grief you’re going through, just know that this is the only place to be, you simply can’t get the same mileage out of any other church.”
Second view: true = useful; living = driven by revelation; pleased = progressing nicely; collectively = some of you are sluffing but oh well ====>
What other Church of the day had all these elements?Quakers? Millerites? Campbellites? Baptists? Anglicans? Third view: This one church has all the elements that people need for their most advanced progress whilst on their mortal journey. I guess we differ, Tom, in that as institutions go, I really do think the LDS church is the best one around for helping people develop themselves spiritually. The trick is getting the members to engage.
So, what do you think is the best, and why?
HiJolly
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