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There are many, many examples of prophetic mantle not making a person perfect. I can’t think of any that would suggest the contrary. – Lehi complained of hardship over the broken bow
– Jonah tried to flee from God rather than go to Ninevah to preach and even after being convinced to go, was hardly stellar
– JS and the Kirtland Safety Society episode
– JS suffering from normal human failures in the interrim between the FV and the appearance of Moroni
Paul had heated arguments with other leaders of his day. We are told in Acts 15 that he and his good friend and fellow missionary, Barnabas, “had such a sharp disagreement that they parted company” (NIV). This was because Barnabas wanted to take John Mark along with them, and Paul didn’t want to because John Mark had previously not shown himself to be totally dedicated. Paul and Barnabas split, with Barnabas taking John Mark and Paul taking Silas as a companion.
An even better example of disagreements, this time over doctrine, is shown in Galatians 2, where Paul, telling his side of the story, said, “But when Cephas [Peter] came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood self-condemned”. This was over the issue of whether gentile converts should become Jewish in order to be Christian. It was a very heated and controversial subject in the 1st century. Peter had gone to Antioch and was freely interacting with the Gentile converts, even eating with them. But then a group of Jews arrived who followed James’ more Jewish view. Paul’s words: “But after they came, he [Peter] drew back and kept himself separate [from the Gentiles] for fear of the circumcision faction. And the other Jews joined him in this hypocrisy, so that even Barnabas was led astray by their hypocrisy. But when I saw that they were not acting consistently with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas before them all…” and he launches into a monologue about being saved by grace, ending with the perfunctory, “for if justification comes through the law, then Christ died for nothing.”
However, that is all academic among us who view prophets as mortal. I think if I were teaching this lesson (or obstructing it from the back row), I would not give a long list of examples. Instead, I would call upon the Psalm of Nephi (
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/2-ne/4.15-35 ) in order to illustrate that we are all in this life trying to become ‘like’ God in very individual ways, and that is just as true for Nephi as it is for everyone in this room. Therefore, what we are following is not other people, no matter their position, but God. People like Nephi offered a lot of good that could be emulated, and a lot of wise counsel that could be followed, but as a man, he still had is own demons to conquer, just like each of us.I think that people are fallible but that God isn’t. Prophets are people. Thanks guys and gals for your excellent quotes and thoughts on the subject. It has given me the courage to offer to teach the lesson. The HPGL agreed that I can teach the lesson, but cautioned that he thinks he may be released before the lesson #11 is scheduled. So my teaching in tentative. Nevertheless, to summarize the above discussion, I believe the best way to present the lesson # 11 is to contrast it with lesson #3. That will eliminate many possible conflicts with the TBMs among others. Teaching this way may well open up a thoughtful and beneficial discussion on how to handle the two principles considering
. Different stewardships
. . The individual vs. Q15 and 15+ million member church
. . The individual situations, economic, politics
. . Abilities: health, education, social, etc.
. . Personal understanding of gospel principles
. Prophets & Apostles are not absolved from mortal fallibilities
. Certainty has not been revealed on all worthy questions (AF #9)
. Faith is required for dealing with the unknown
If you aren’t teaching the class, a way of to help the discussion may be to keeping lesson # 3 handy, and let Benson argue the absurdities of lesson # 11 for you.
I think specific examples usually seem to be quoted from the man, not the prophet speaking as the prophet. And the arguments start to go in circles. I mean…Nephi commits murder…but there is an explanation for it. Right? Everything gets explained away and interpreted by the apologetic or the critic from their point of view. I usually just fall back to the beauty of mormon doctrine that we know revelation continues, and is not closed. Therefore, anything prophets have said in the past is open for further light and knowledge and expounding upon. And so we need the personal line of communication to know what is right for my family and others have the right to decide what is right for theirs.
In other words, it isn’t worth making a list for me, because anything on the list can be debated as a fail or not.
I let others prop up prophets as near perfect if they wish. I have learned to be more skeptical, but value the wisdom of holy men and woman who do their best to see through the glass darkly.
I know others take comfort in believing the old saying “the Lord will not allow the prophet to lead the church astray”…and if that works for them…great.
I just repeat to myself in my head the words of Inigo Montoya…”You keep saying those words….I do not thing that means what you think it means.”
Heber13 wrote:I let others prop up prophets as near perfect if they wish. I have learned to be more skeptical, but value the wisdom of holy men and woman who do their best to see through the glass darkly.
I know others take comfort in believing the old saying “the Lord will not allow the prophet to lead the church astray”…and if that works for them…great.
I’m certainly in the “if it works for you” camp.
If I try to get at the heart of the matter my issue isn’t with people putting their trust in the arm of flesh (at least not in this case), my real issue is probably with people policing other people’s beliefs. It’s just that the subject of prophetic fallibility lends itself to this sort of policing, and the policing can occur on both ends. I know I’ve certainly been guilty of that… from both sides.
😳 Prophetic fallibility is one of those line in the sand things for many people and any time we draw a line us mere mortals have the tendency to want to assign people to either side of it. We also like to instinctively make that determination for other people rather than allow people to self identify.
I don’t know where this fits into the lesson/thread. Maybe “it’s okay to disagree with a church leader” but without the implication that someone is losing an eternal reward for doing so. Maybe god smiles on the courage and conviction it takes to exercise our agency to follow our own conscience. There can be a silver lining lesson to be learned from what other people may perceive to be disobedience.
nibbler wrote:If I try to get at the heart of the matter my issue isn’t with people putting their trust in the arm of flesh (at least not in this case), my real issue is probably with people policing other people’s beliefs. It’s just that the subject of prophetic fallibility lends itself to this sort of policing, and the policing can occur on both ends. I know I’ve certainly been guilty of that… from both sides.
😳
I have definitely been guilty of being both the prodigal son and his brother when I should more often be the father.
Gotta be a son before you can be a father. The problem I have is that some of the stuff Joseph Smith, Brigham Young and other prophets did, we would get excommunicated for, and they did not. There are a few ways of looking at that. Holding ourselves to a higher standard is probably a good thing.
If they are shoe-ins for the CK then what does that make us?
Times change, Bridget. We want them to do so, so we can’t argue about it happening. We might complain about some specific changes, but people really can be judged only in light of their times.
Just found an awesome treasure trove of quotes on prophetic fallability. I was going to copy some of them into our quotes section but they just kept coming and I am lazy. READ THE COMMENTS! http://latterdayspence.blogspot.com/2013/05/terryl-givens-on-prophetic-mantle-myth.html bridget_night wrote:The problem I have is that some of the stuff Joseph Smith, Brigham Young and other prophets did, we would get excommunicated for, and they did not.
Hi Bridget,
A major part of this is to understand that moral standards change with time. We might want to say that what is right has always been right but such does not seem to be the case. I read a book about a massacre of chinese immagrant miners in Oregon about the same time that BY was in power. I was completely shocked at how communities treated the chinese (up to and including burning their homes and expelling them or in some cases killing them). This was not just the outlaws that were doing this. In many cases it seems to have been instigated and supported by the community leadership. I wonder how the aftermath of MMM might have gone differently if Chinese immagrants or Mexican settlers or American Indians had been the victims. It was a VERY different time.
But what about polygamy? That may have been part of the times for Abraham and Isaac but not for JS. For me that rests with the charismatic leadership of JS. I just finished taking a college course on leadership. according to the text, “the charismatic leader’s expertise lies in using unconventional means to transcend the existing order… behavior of the charismatic leader is unconventional and counter to the norm”
The qualities of charismatic leaders are:
Vision (disatisfaction with the status quo and strong drive for a different future)
Communication Skills
Self-confidence and moral conviction (believing that you are right at all hazards)
Ability to inspire trust
High risk orientation “charismatic leaders romanticize risk”
High energy and action orientation
Relational power base “There is a powerful identification with and emulation of the leader and an unquestioning acceptance of and affection for the leader.” Power not based on position.
Minimum Internal Conflict (do not tend to second guess themselves) “Because of this conviction, they experience less guilt and discomfort in pushing followers to stay the course even when faced with threats.”
Ability to empower others (Priesthood councils might have been the key to the churches survival/growth. JS was able to empower others and build a following that did not know and associate with him personally.)
Self promoting personality
So with JS we cannot attribute all his behavior to just “the times” that he was living in because in many ways he was bucking the trend and “boldy going where no man had gone before.”
In general I agree with your premise Bridget. If God considers such mistake/moral failing prone individuals to be his servants and friends then He might be much more flexible and everlastingly forgiving then we might imagine from our modern LDS framework.
I agree that morals are relative to our environment. That said I find it interesting that the early saints did their best to keep polygamy a secret… at least until they segregated themselves in the shadows of the everlasting hills. That would lead me to believe that the people practicing polygamy didn’t consider it kosher even in their day, otherwise why be so secretive? I’ll attempt to answer my own question. If morals are determined relative to our environment we could take it a step further, our environment could consist of the age in which we live, our local community, or even exist entirely in the mind of the individual.
Quote:our environment could consist of the age in which we live, our local community,
or even exist entirely in the mind of the individual. There is SO much in that last part that deserves consideration and discussion – and, imo, it lies at the very heart of grace, mercy, charity and the Gospel as I understand it.
OK, let’s change this around a little, can anybody name a major prophetic pronouncement by a modern prophet that came true? I’m not talking about the general talk that we hear from our 15, but honest prophecies that foretold an event that was not anticipated. Old Testament like prophecies!
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