Questioning D&C 9:7-9

[Anonymous]

Old Timer wrote:

It was a personal statement to one person. Period.

We take WAY too much in the Church that is personal and try to make it universal.

While I completely agree, I think it’s a difficult sell. These verses are frequently spouted as a guide to discern truth and these verses have certainly, IMO, helped create the Mormon model of decision making–study it out, make a choice, and pray to God for confirmation, which is provided through feelings. This basic model is part of being or becoming a Mormon, right? Faith in the truthfulness of a book, then a prayer to ask if it’s right with the promise that God will provide the answer through the holy ghost. Now Moroni doesn’t say how exactly the holy ghost will manifest this but the model is through feelings, which is supported by D&C 9. Missionaries are even encouraged to teach investigators what their feelings mean (which sounds really silly at best and manipulative at worst). Now, maybe we’ve completely misunderstood the Moroni promise to be about the truth of a book full of theoretical contridictions rather than about the message that Christ is our Savior, but that’s probably a thought for a different topic.

My question is, how do we promote the idea that D&C 9 was written for Oliver Cowdry when it’s canonized for us? What’s not to say that God used this example to teach us how to discern truth?

And what if we used this model to discern whether or not this model was ubiquitous?

OK… So I studied it out and decided that D&C9 was supposed to be specific to Oliver Cowdry and not generalizable to everyone. I prayed asked God if this was right and felt my bosum burn with me. I felt it was right.

Then the universe exploded.

[Anonymous]

SilentDawning wrote:

I’m on the “comfort” model now. Brian Johnson mentioned that blessings comfort people, so even if they don’t come to pass, the experience is a way you can help people ease suffering. I also think they are of value because they provide an opportunity to give advice to someone in a formal setting that they might not otherwise get, or ask for.

nibbler wrote:

There’s a temptation to chase that divine stamp of approval to give us that comfort that we’re doing the right thing and on the right track.

I agree but I believe that this is a feature and not a bug. Suppose that you are debating taking a new job and moving to a distant city. You study it out and weigh the pros and cons until you come to a decision. Then you take it to God in prayer to essentially bless/ratify what you had decided to do. Then you move forward with more confidence then you might otherwise have had. Certainly you do not want to be hasty, imprudent, or overconfident but nor do you want to be paralyzed with indecision, fear, and second guessing.

[Anonymous]

cnsl1, I simply point out that it was a statement to a person, and at it doesn’t work that way for everyone – including me, at times, and lots of people I know. I have NEVER had strong pushback when I have said that – largely because it is so obviously true and multiple people are nodding as I say it.

Also, it was not canonized “for us” as THE way things work. It was canonized as what God told one person – explicitly, since Oliver was the recipient of the statement, and “you” is used repeatedly throughout it in a way that makes it clear it still is being said to him. It doesn’t even imply it is for anyone else.

How it has been used by people since then doesn’t change that simple fact. There is NO canonized statement that God speaks that way to everyone – or even anyone other than Oliver. In fact, there are statements that say otherwise. I just point out that simple fact, and everyone gets it. Everyone. It helps that I say it gently and with a smile, but everyone gets it.

[Anonymous]

Roy wrote:

I agree but I believe that this is a feature and not a bug. Suppose that you are debating taking a new job and moving to a distant city. You study it out and weigh the pros and cons until you come to a decision. Then you take it to God in prayer to essentially bless/ratify what you had decided to do. Then you move forward with more confidence then you might otherwise have had. Certainly you do not want to be hasty, imprudent, or overconfident but nor do you want to be paralyzed with indecision, fear, and second guessing.

And even then we’ve got a nice story about the Wrong Roads in life. When god ratifies a binary choice we make and it doesn’t work out, we can then go forward in 100% confidence that the other road was the correct one. In those cases you just have to hope that you didn’t get too far down the incorrect path before making the realization.

If we use prayer to move forward maybe there’s a Urim and Thummim approach: either/or, this or that, 0 or 1; and a “ok lord, I’m here at this stage in my life, now what?” approach.

[Anonymous]

Old Timer wrote:

cnsl1, I simply point out that it was a statement to a person, and at it doesn’t work that way for everyone – including me, at times, and lots of people I know. I have NEVER had strong pushback when I have said that – largely because it is so obviously true and multiple people are nodding as I say it.

Also, it was not canonized “for us” as THE way things work. It was canonized as what God told one person – explicitly, since Oliver was the recipient of the statement, and “you” is used repeatedly throughout it in a way that makes it clear it still is being said to him. It doesn’t even imply it is for anyone else.

How it has been used by people since then doesn’t change that simple fact. There is NO canonized statement that God speaks that way to everyone – or even anyone other than Oliver. In fact, there are statements that say otherwise. I just point out that simple fact, and everyone gets it. Everyone. It helps that I say it gently and with a smile, but everyone gets it.

I agree with this and also have never really gotten pushback (unlike my earlier example of Moroni). It’s also worth pointing out it didn’t really work for Oliver either. He failed at translating. If we read carefully, not only is this revelation specifically for Oliver, it is specifically about translating.

[Anonymous]

Roy wrote:

SilentDawning wrote:

I’m on the “comfort” model now. Brian Johnson mentioned that blessings comfort people, so even if they don’t come to pass, the experience is a way you can help people ease suffering. I also think they are of value because they provide an opportunity to give advice to someone in a formal setting that they might not otherwise get, or ask for.

nibbler wrote:

There’s a temptation to chase that divine stamp of approval to give us that comfort that we’re doing the right thing and on the right track.

I agree but I believe that this is a feature and not a bug. Suppose that you are debating taking a new job and moving to a distant city. You study it out and weigh the pros and cons until you come to a decision. Then you take it to God in prayer to essentially bless/ratify what you had decided to do. Then you move forward with more confidence then you might otherwise have had. Certainly you do not want to be hasty, imprudent, or overconfident but nor do you want to be paralyzed with indecision, fear, and second guessing.

But such a case is what led to my faith crisis. Just saying.

[Anonymous]

DarkJedi wrote:

But such a case is what led to my faith crisis. Just saying.

Yes, basically what we are doing is building a narrative around your life that adds meaning to your life. This is a good thing generally. However, there does reach a point where the circumstances change and the narrative’s assumptions are challenged. We can then come up with all sorts of patches to help align the narrative with what we are experiencing (maybe we weren’t righteous enough, or maybe God is trying to test me or teach me something through hardship, or as nibbler pointed out maybe God allowed us to make the wrong choice in order to know for ourselves that it was wrong and double back to forevermore make the right choice). I have frequently read that instead of asking “Why is this happening to me?” one should reframe the question to “What can I learn from this?” To do so, I believe, moves us from a position of challenging narrative assumptions into a position of building patches for the incongruities.

Again this is generally a good thing. Abandoning your life narrative is painful and should not be undertaken lightly (especially if you do not have anything better to replace it with).

[Anonymous]

Roy wrote:

DarkJedi wrote:

But such a case is what led to my faith crisis. Just saying.

Yes, basically what we are doing is building a narrative around your life that adds meaning to your life. This is a good thing generally. However, there does reach a point where the circumstances change and the narrative’s assumptions are challenged. We can then come up with all sorts of patches to help align the narrative with what we are experiencing (maybe we weren’t righteous enough, or maybe God is trying to test me or teach me something through hardship, or as nibbler pointed out maybe God allowed us to make the wrong choice in order to know for ourselves that it was wrong and double back to forevermore make the right choice). I have frequently read that instead of asking “Why is this happening to me?” one should reframe the question to “What can I learn from this?” To do so, I believe, moves us from a position of challenging narrative assumptions into a position of building patches for the incongruities.

Again this is generally a good thing. Abandoning your life narrative is painful and should not be undertaken lightly (especially if you do not have anything better to replace it with).

Ten years ago I probably would have been tempted to punch you if you said that to me. I was pretty tired of hearing such crap then. I’m not saying you aren’t right, but my point of view then was much different than my point of view now. In answer to “What can I learn from this?” though then answer is the same now as it was then. I learned that God is not what many in the LDS church believe and teach he is; God cannot be trusted (if he even exists); and emotion is no way to judge when something is true or correct.

[Anonymous]

DarkJedi wrote:

In answer to “What can I learn from this?” though then answer is the same now as it was then. I learned that God is not what many in the LDS church believe and teach he is; God cannot be trusted (if he even exists); and emotion is no way to judge when something is true or correct.

Just to be clear, I myself came here after an assumptive world collapse after the stillbirth of my daughter. However, I have come to realize that not everybody that loses a child in death ends up having a faith crisis. I honestly do not know what differentiates those that have FC after traumatic experiences from those that don’t. I expect that there are a host of factors and that conscious choice makes up some small portion of that. (I am a proponent of limited choice wherein our choices are limited both by external [limited options etc.] and internal [the lens through which we interpret information, our genetic predispositions, etc.] limitations.

Roy wrote:

I have frequently read that instead of asking “Why is this happening to me?” one should reframe the question to “What can I learn from this?” To do so, I believe, moves us from a position of challenging narrative assumptions into a position of building patches for the incongruities.

So when I hear that advice I understand the person to be saying that they have no good answers for “Why is this happening to me?” They see the very question as unproductive at best and dangerous at worst. Dangerous because it challenges one of the basic assumptions of the narrative that God blesses those he favors i.e. the “just world hypothesis.” If the individual can reframe the question into “What can I learn from this?” or “How can I grow from this?” Then they can be well on their way to patching the inconsistency (IOW “The experience made me a better person in the long run therefore maybe it was part of God’s plan for me all along”).

Roy wrote:

Again this is generally a good thing. Abandoning your life narrative is painful and should not be undertaken lightly (especially if you do not have anything better to replace it with).

I certainly believe that there comes a time when abandoning a life narrative is the smart and right choice. I also believe that most of us do not choose to abandon a life narrative but rather find that it has crumbled beneath us. I merely intend to say that for those whose assumptive realities make their life meaningful and fulfilling, patching inconsistencies with platitudes and/or apologetics is perfectly useful and understandable.

To say it another way – The LDS framework works beautifully until it doesn’t. People for whom it works beautifully can reasonably be expected to try to get the LDS framework to continue to work for them for as long as possible.

[Anonymous]

Roy wrote:

Roy wrote:

I have frequently read that instead of asking “Why is this happening to me?” one should reframe the question to “What can I learn from this?” To do so, I believe, moves us from a position of challenging narrative assumptions into a position of building patches for the incongruities.

So when I hear that advice I understand the person to be saying that they have no good answers for “Why is this happening to me?” They see the very question as unproductive at best and dangerous at worst. Dangerous because it challenges one of the basic assumptions of the narrative that God blesses those he favors i.e. the “just world hypothesis.” If the individual can reframe the question into “What can I learn from this?” or “How can I grow from this?” Then they can be well on their way to patching the inconsistency (IOW “The experience made me a better person in the long run therefore maybe it was part of God’s plan for me all along”).

When I initially read the quote you quoted in the quote above …quote… the serenity prayer came to the forefront of my mind:

Quote:

God, give me grace to accept with serenity

the things that cannot be changed,

Courage to change the things

which should be changed,

and the Wisdom to distinguish

the one from the other.

“Why is this happening to me?” Often if we reach the point of asking this question it’s because of a situation that is outside of our control. Reframing it as “What can I learn from this?” can reorient someone’s thoughts back on what can be controlled… which sometimes is little more than restraining from punching someone.

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