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First off — I do think the scriptures hold value — as a historical record (if true), of the way they point us to God, and they do reveal points of doctrine and parts of the plan of salvation. They do guide us on certain leadership principles, and the nature of God. On the other hand, I find they are woefully inadequate when it comes to solving day to day problems. First, many of the stories are steeped in historical culture we don’t understand, so the more practical advice can be irrelevant to our modern times. They also tend to be broad and general, which is great for speaking to people across eras, but often, they only point you in a general direction. sometimes they give broad advice that is only applicable to certain circumstances.
On the other hand, self-help books by professionals are far more helpful to helping us solve problems. They are based on research, give us practical advice, and often give you very clear, actionable methods of solving problems.
Case in point — after I finished my PhD a few weeks ago, I hit a period of burnout. I wasted so much time on TV, lounging around, and other non-productive tasks. Sure self-renewal is important, but I knew I was being excessive. I turned to a book on productivity, and the Urgency/Importance grid, the chapter on the brain and how it reacts to pleasure and work, and practical advice about roles, self-assessment, etcetera, all shook me out of the time wasting and burnout within a day. It was very practical , up to date, and relevant to me. All I could get out of the scriptures was the need to be industrious and hardworking. Fine, but how do you get that motivation, and what principles do you follow to discipline your mind? Plus, the information is often scattered throughout the scriptures, while you can buy a book on the very topic you are interested in — and it’s entirely focused on your problem. And often backed by years of research.
So, I do agree the scriptures have value, but I do feel this value is over-emphasized in our church. I think the admonition to “seek learning out of the best books” is wise in the scriptures, but I feel the attitude that all answers to life is in the scriptures is overrated. Otherwise, there would be less need for counselors, and self-help books would be unnecessary. What do you think — are the scriptures overrated, and self-help books underrated in our church?
You know, I was just thinking about this during one of the talks yesterday. The BoM doesn’t say anything about marriage, and says very little about raising children. It’s silent on the question of SSM, doesn’t say anything about whether it’s wrong to abuse your spouse or children, not one word about p0rn, etc. etc. etc. On the other hand, the words of Jesus? Especially the part about loving your neighbor like yourself? That’s absolutely universal.
I was wondering this the other day when I see people say that they love the BOM. I was trying to get a better understanding of what specifically they loved about it. Is it the clarity of the doctrine? Great! What is your favorite one that was taught in the BoM? Is it the symbolism of the tree of life or the allegory of the olive trees? Good answer. I am not saying that scripture cannot be something that people love. Just that sometimes it seems to be a knee jerk reaction and that many people say that they love it without thinking deeply about the specifics.
This was interesting to consider. Recently i’ve had an experience where the science of psychology seemed to awaken something within my mind that led to the desire to change my life.
I’m a pornography and Morphine addict living in chronic pain but even so i’m definitely an addict and need to somehow find sobriety. For years i’ve been so depressed that things of the spirit such as the scriptures and gospel principles seemed to be extraneous or perhaps unable to reach me. Who knows, its hard to explain but suffice it to say that I was unresponsive to the reading of the scriptures when i would make meager attempts. I was unresponsive to even modern scripture to some degree at least, (general authority talks etc.)
I was shaken out of my depression by watching a long video series given on the symbolism and possible interpretation of the bible given by Dr. Jordan Peterson, a psycologist and professor from Canada. His approach to the Bible at least publicly is pseudo-secular. He tries to understand meanings of the symbolism and ‘encoded knowledge’ that lies within what might seem like more outdated stories. His view towards gods existence is agnostic but he speaks ‘as if’ he believes. He approaches the Bible as an evolutionary psychologist would, using science to try and test whether humanity as a whole actually was encoding profound mental discoveries within narrative oral tradition. He would call himself a “Darwin Pragmatist.” That the question of whether the Bible can provide instruction on how to live, and the benefit of believing in god, is more important than the metaphysics of whether god in the biblical sense actually exists. (I disagree that you can bifurcate it so severely but i still value his input)
Peterson talks a lot about how the scriptures tell us how to live successful lives, or ‘less tragic’ lives as he puts it. He is a pessimist when it comes to attainable levels of positive emotion, but an optimist about an individuals ability to find fulfillment and meaning to the tragedy in their life. He speaks incessantly about standing up and taking responsibility and at least making a bloody attempt to live the life of an archetypal hero.
I don’t know why but for some reason his understanding seemed to shake me out of my depression. Once that had taken place i was open to learn things i needed to learn about how to change and find sobriety through the scriptures and modern scripture.
However this did not happen from me reading the scriptures as ever i had before. I dont now allow sessions of just reading scriptures, I have a question and i search until i find the answer to that question. Sometimes it may come directly from the text, sometimes it may be the spirit speaking to me simply because doing ‘SOMETHING’ good is enough to qualify for the spirit.
I see ancient and modern scripture as equal in valuable but they serve different purposes. Self help and Psychology can be from external sources, but I have actually found books from general authorities to be valuable in specific ways as well.
Perhaps the most base purpose of ancient scripture is to stand as a witness of Jesus Christ. If Christ lives, than applying the particulars and specific methods to act and grow and change actually have meaning and power.
Modern Scripture, talks, books, etc, cannot be a direct ‘witness’ of Christ in the traditional sense that they lived and were among him in the flesh. This is something we cannot get from modern scripture.
Self Help which is more secular in nature and outside the church, is still extremely valuable because knowledge and wisdom is power, and knowledge and wisdom are in and of Christ. If they teach true principals, even scientific ones about the brain etc, than that truth is empowering for our lives. All truth is empowering, even worldly knowledge.
In my opinion the ancient scriptures are just as valuable because they provide and testify in some historical way at least (which is sure to be imperfect record) That Christ lived and that his power is the focus and reason we are here.
Silent Dawning, Since you mentioned wasting time with tv, I just wanted to point out a recent RadioWest interview in which they discussed “Active Rest.” It’s the idea that you should build in rest into your day, including naps, long walks, etc and you will have less burnout and be more productive. Listen at
http://radiowest.kuer.org/post/importance-rest-1 I think the scriptures give us a lot of the what and the why, but not a lot of the how. Most of the how relates to grace / using the Atonement / turning to Christ. I think this can have application in everyday life, but only under a certain umbrella of spiritual problems and some extensions of those problems.
The scriptures lay out explicitly what is right and wrong and what we need to do to connect with God (and why). I don’t think this role can be replaced.
That said, that only covers a small sliver of life. Yes, it’s a very important sliver, but it isn’t everything. I see nothing magical about reading the BoM. It does not make sense to me how one’s belief can be so fragile that not reading it regularly will make you lose your faith (that rhetoric honestly makes it seem like brainwashing). I can understand getting rusty, as my programming skills tend to need a derust if I don’t use them for a while. But rusty does not mean everything is gone. I can’t honestly say that reading the scriptures, in and of itself, has made me a more faithful person. That faith has come from acting on things I have learned, and many of those things came directly from the Spirit and did not directly involve the scriptures. They were perhaps sparked by a scripture, but most of the time, the spark is my personal experiences.
I think scriptures give us a lot of someone else’s whats and whys. I view them as something that can prime the pump to get us to a place where we can write our own scripture. I wish scripture was used more in talks and lessons in our church, not less. They do have value and we don’t really understand them that well, I don’t think. We go more off what conference talks are about than scripture, it seems to me. I think they are broad and vague. Kind of like general ed classes in university. They won’t have specific answers to questions in life, you figure that on your own when you pick your own major and career and learning on the job, but the value scripture can be they help teach you how to think, what questions to ask and how to spiritually navigate through things, even if specifically the material is irrelevant to life (like killing lambs or building an ark or something).
When it points us to have love in our hearts, it can help solve all problems in life.
gospeltangents wrote:
Silent Dawning,Since you mentioned wasting time with tv, I just wanted to point out a recent RadioWest interview in which they discussed “Active Rest.” It’s the idea that you should build in rest into your day, including naps, long walks, etc and you will have less burnout and be more productive. Listen at
http://radiowest.kuer.org/post/importance-rest-1
Thanks for this. I implement the naps regularly it seems. I get up really early if I go to bed early (4:30 am, my body doesn’t seem to want to sleep much later if I go to bed at 10 pm), and then by noon I need a nap again to get through the day, which, in my work, often lasts until 10 pm or later.
nibbler wrote:
I think scriptures give us a lot of someone else’s whats and whys. I view them as something that can prime the pump to get us to a place where we can write our own scripture.
You have to be careful with this. If you phrase it that way you’ll find the correlation SWAT team will be out to get you. I wrote a chapter as if from the Book of Mormon once just to see how it felt to read it. It was amazing, simply having a chapter number at the top, an italicized chapter summary, and the columnar, numbered verses, written in King James Biblical style sort of like the Book of Mormon, invoked spiritual feelings when I read it.
I grew envious the JS had already claimed that territory or I would’ve done it myself! Just kidding.
1. It’s better to have it and not want it, than it is to want it and not have it.
2. Strategy without execution is dead.
3. Leadership is the process of turning vision into sustained reality through the wise use of power.
I don’t think all the scriptures are equal. Reading things about not mixing two kinds of thread or reading about the senines, limnahs and antions of the Nephites don’t do it for me. Ecclesiastes is far more interesting than Leviticus and the Gospels interest me more than some of the letters. As for the Book of Abraham, I prefer the Book of Mormon. Even D&C varies in interest.
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