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Gospel Doctrine today (DW teaches) was about acting with faith ex. when Noah built the ark it wasn’t raining. The question what commandments require faith to obey? Several remarks then one answer was accepting callings… I don’t remember the whole dialog but this is one of my stumbling blocks. It seems to me that a calling has designed into it a method to compel and also make the decision to call you something it is not. Just MHO which I can only disclose here. What other commandments do you feel require faith to obey? Is it all based on faith alone? As a missionary, sometimes I would extend an invitation to church and the person would respond with, “If God wants.” This was very frustrating because 1) I felt very sure God wanted this person in church and 2) this usually was said as a way to avoid commitment.
In this way I can agree that accepting a calling takes faith. I believe that it takes faith that I will be alive tomorrow and relatively available to dedicate time and effort. I believe that it takes faith that I might be able to step out of my comfort zone and stretch myself in ways that might lead to growth.
One of the advantages of a faith community is the support they can offer in hard times. In regards to Noah building the ark when it wasn’t raining, perhaps it takes faith for a person to contribute to a faith community – believing that they will return the favor for him if he should ever need it.
P.S. I also tend to ask for 24 hours to consider new callings and will turn it down if it is not a good fit. “Stretching outside of my comfort zone” can be a good thing – “Throwing me into the deep end to teach me how to swim” is not. I must advocate for myself to determine the difference.
Anything takes faith if the person has no prior experience with it – if there is no “seen evidence” of the outcome. Just a different 2 cents worth about what faith isn’t. Faith is notknowing the sun will rise. The sun will rise and that has nothing to do with faith because we do see it. How about faith as it relates specifically to commandants? That was the question in GD today. I gave an example where I don’t have faith. I discretely left class before tithing came up. WoW? I suppose most people would say it takes faith to pay tithing or live the WoW. But faith in what? There certainly are different meanings of the word, so which meaning are we talking about? In my experience we are not always talking about the same thing. I don’t have a simple answer to your question. I do pay tithing, not on gross, and I do live the WoW although I eat meat in summer, could eat more grains, and for those who are wrong the on the subject anyway I drink caffeine regularly (but not daily). But I won’t say it’s because I have faith because I struggle with faith. I will say I do these things of choice – I want to do them. And I do other things similarly, also because I want to. I do not expect any reward for doing them, however.
For me, faith is a willingness to act despite uncertainty. It’s not about “knowing” or believing. There is some hope involved- that your actions will lead to something good. I’d say faith is only tangentially related to keeping commandments. That would be more of a “trust” which is sort of a second meaning of faith I guess- the sort of faith that counts on another person or being to deliver as promised. But it’s hard to trust a delivery when you don’t know what will be delivered or if/when it will be delivered. “The Lord’s Blessings” are so nebulous that I’m not even sure it’s fair to attribute them to God. Sure, in some way, everything could come from God, but other than thanking Him for the things we have, I don’t think it’s productive to try to guess the sources of the outcomes in our lives. Sometimes a consequence is just a consequence. It doesn’t have to come from God.
The thing about commandments is that there are no explicit blessings for keeping them. I think they’re inspired guideposts pointing out pitfalls to avoid in life. I’m not sure God really works any other way. He loves us and he gives us commandments for our benefit. None of his commandments are arbitrary…
But then when men get a hold of his commandments, they interpret them incorrectly, over-emphasize non-essential parts, add legalistic rules on top of them, and otherwise morph them into something so different from the original commandment that the rule is once again arbitrary and the truth in it is lost by the time they get to the common man. The church is not immune to this phenomenon.
Church leaders are only His imperfect messengers. I think we ought to be careful that we’re following God’s Commandments and not Man’s Rules. It’s perfectly reasonable to “lack faith” in callings or church policy. Not living the WoW does not show a lack of faith because it was never a commandment in the first place, although it is divinely inspired and it has clear health benefits (especially in the parts that most members ignore). Tithing policy has changed a lot over the history of the church. God doesn’t need your money. That’s not to say that you shouldn’t pay tithing. Counsel with the Lord and find something that works for you.
Beefster wrote:
For me, faith is a willingness to act despite uncertainty. It’s not about “knowing” or believing. There is some hope involved- that your actions will lead to something good.Good post sir/mam. I have been taught that faith in a commandment is following a commandment believing that a reward will follow before having any certainty. For what it’s worth.
I think the first part of having faith is figuring out which commandment(s) are actually commandment(s), and which are just cultural traditions, recommendations, or someone’s good idea or someone’s means of measurement to “keep up with the Jones’s”. To me, Loving God and Loving Others are commandments as far as I know about God and how to serve others in my capacity. There is also an implied commandment to love and take care of yourself – hold yourself as equal to others. This is what I am focused on improving in.
I live the WoW abstinence wise because a) it’s not a good idea with my family DNA to mess with alcohol/drugs – even my caffeine usage I consulted with my husband and my doctor for and am striving to be responsible with, b) it’s a habit, c) it would strain my relationship with my husband.
I am re-thinking my definitions of modesty – I may put my toddler and 8 year old in sundresses without a shirt underneath in public this summer, not sure.
I guess for me, instead of judging those I used to see as deviating – I am starting to say “hey – you are here! what are you working on for you? I will be happy to cheer you on and mourn with you when you encounter mourning situations.”
Kipper wrote:
I have been taught that faith in a commandment is following a commandment believing that a reward will follow before having any certainty. For what it’s worth.
Yesterday we had a whole lesson on just that.
Often I hear doubt being presented as the opposite of faith but I think certainty does a better job of filling that role. Doubts can help faith grow, certainty almost always makes faith shrink.
I like to think of faith in the context of someone moving across country for a new job, or switching careers, or starting their own business, or making a thoughtful decision to get divorced. Essentially, all of these have in common sacrificing some of the comforts and dependability of the current known situation for a future that is somewhat uncertain but is hoped to be a positive step forward. Religious conservatives tend to defend the status quo. This (in the context I have explained above) is not faith in my opinion. It is good and right to stick with what you know (especially if it is working for you), I just do not see that as faith.
I was watching a nature documentary on Sunday. It had a sequence about these gulls that live up on the cliff edge for part of the year to build nests and raise young easily several hundred feet above the ground. The cliffs are something like 40 meters from the water – and the chicks are not built for soaring – at best it looks like hang-gliding to the water (if you are a lucky, well prepared chick) or onto the ground to be lunch. It’s also a 1 launch ticket – there is no go back and climbing up into the nest again. The first chick was pumped – and plummeted to the ground about 10 meters or so from the cliffs. Because the chick went alone and did not get enough distance, the chick was a young fox’s lunch. The next chick also fell short, hitting the ground (and rolling – it was pretty funny) a few meters further – but was able to roll safely and waddle to the water (lacking dignity, but in good health) – it helped that the chick’s parent glided along side the chick and was there to protect the chick (though the footage didn’t show any lurking foxes – maybe it had already been fed, or was omitted from the video). The last chick went off the cliff and plummeted successfully (barely) into the water – also accompanied by a parent. There was nothing graceful about any of the launches – but I find them captured in my mind.
To me, faith is in part the chick plunge. You don’t know the ground below you or how much ground you will cover – but it is helpful if you have someone who can support you (and at least scare off the foxes) – and if you can see your goal (at least the short term). And maybe sometimes you will be the chick that just falls short, makes a very ungraceful landing – but doesn’t get eaten.
Amateur Parent (another participant here) has mentioned about the sparrows or birds of the air referenced by Jesus in Matt. 6:26. The verse seems to indicate that God will provide, yet the birds existence is a hard one. Short busy lives. High mortality rates. Death by freezing, starvation, or violence. Maybe the bigger lesson is that life (however short or difficult) is worth the effort and that each life journey requires faith as we place one foot in front of the other stepping into an uncertain future.
Roy wrote:
I like to think of faith in the context of someone moving across country for a new job, or switching careers, or starting their own business, or making a thoughtful decision to get divorced. Essentially, all of these have in common sacrificing some of the comforts and dependability of the current known situation for a future that is somewhat uncertain but is hoped to be a positive step forward.Religious conservatives tend to defend the status quo. This (in the context I have explained above) is not faith in my opinion. It is good and right to stick with what you know (especially if it is working for you), I just do not see that as faith.
I agree with this 100%. I think I got lost in trying to answer some of Kipper’s questions that this message got lost.Faith is hoping that things will work out even when you don’t know exactly how. Faith and obedience (to God) are not on the same axis, but they’re not quite orthogonal either. Too often, obedience is framed as a form of conformity to a norm or status quo rather than adherence to actual divine advice derived from God’s complete understanding of the nature of the universe. Doing as you’re told is not really an act of faith. Trust, maybe, but not faith. Often times, it’s trusting your own judgment and instinct that is the real act of faith. Finding your own path and working things out with God, on your own terms, takes a totally different kind of faith than the “obedience for blessings” mentality that prevails in the church or the “belief in Jesus for salvation” that is common in the evangelical Christian world. This kind of faith has no clear path and the results are completely unknown. But in the end, you come out a better person who owns his/her belief in God.
Status quo leads to stagnation. Status quo is an enemy to (eternal) progression which sometimes wears the mask of obedience. If you are not changing, you are certainly not getting better.
nibbler wrote:
Often I hear doubt being presented as the opposite of faith but I think certainty does a better job of filling that role. Doubts can help faith grow, certainty almost always makes faith shrink.
I like this so much that I decided to put it in my signature.
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