Questions vs. Doubts or Questions vs. Questions

[Anonymous]

I would have to read the whole thing to see if that is whitewash or factually correct. (I tried the link, but it wouldn’t open.)

The wording you quoted could be correct or incorrect, depending on the rest of the description, since his account says he did use it while dictating the Book of Mormon.

[Anonymous]

The article isn’t a publication of the church (at least I didn’t see a CoJCoLDS stamp, I don’t know what ldsmag is though), it’s written by Larry Barkdull and that might be more of a reflection of his belief than the official position of the church. It might not be a whitewash so much as it is someone writing up an article that supports their beliefs.

The first quote:

Quote:

The one used by Joseph Smith to translate the Book of Mormon and receive revelation was the ancient Urim and Thummim used by the Brother of Jared.

Cites the bible dictionary as it’s source. The relevant part:

Quote:

There is more than one Urim and Thummim, but we are informed that Joseph Smith had the one used by the brother of Jared … Joseph Smith used it in translating the Book of Mormon and in obtaining other revelations.

The Bible Dictionary could stand a nice overhaul.

The second quote:

Quote:

For example, Joseph Smith depended on the Urim and Thummim until he completed the translation of the Book of Mormon, then “he did not use the stone anymore.”

Cites David Whitmer’s All Believers. I haven’t read his source but what’s interesting is that he clarifies; early sections of the D&C were received through the U&T but later sections weren’t. He didn’t feel the need to show how JS depended on the U&T to translate the BoM, it was enough for him to go off of the dates of some sections in the D&C.

I may be wrong but my haze of a memory tells me that the official account has JS translating the original 116 pages of the BoM via the U&T but not using it when translation recommences.

[Anonymous]

LookingHard wrote:

And then this morning they have a Looking into the Urim and Thummim where they say, “There are several versions of the Urim and Thummim mentioned in the scriptures. The one used by Joseph Smith to translate the Book of Mormon and receive revelation” and “Joseph Smith depended on the Urim and Thummim until he completed the translation of the Book of Mormon, then “he did not use the stone anymore.”

It is just frustrating to see another layer of whitewash being applied.

I guess I’m not really sure what you’re getting at here. It’s Meridian Magazine, which is not an official publication but I understand does have a fairly wide readership.

So are you saying the article is incorrect and Joseph did use the urim and thummim (and/or seer stone) after completing the BoM? I guess I’m not understanding what you’re seeing as being whitewashed.

[Anonymous]

nibbler wrote:

I may be wrong but my haze of a memory tells me that the official account has JS translating the original 116 pages of the BoM via the U&T but not using it when translation recommences.

That is my memory as well. The U&T were not returned to JS by the angel Moroni when he returned the plates. JS continued the translation with his brown seer stone that he had previously found while digging a well. I understand that JS and some of his contemporaries had misused the term U&T to refer to the brown seer stone.

I cut and pasted the following from old threads:

Quote:

“Great and Marvelous are the Revelations of God” by Gerrit Dirkmaat of the Church History Department.

“He also applied the term (Urim and Thummim) to other stones he possessed, called “seer stones” because they aided him in receiving revelations as a seer. The Prophet received some early revelations through the use of these seer stones.”

Quote:

The following link is to FAIRMormon and has many sources and the translation process of the BOM:

http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Translation/Method/1846-1900

It seems likely that JS used different methods during different phases. The “interpreters” in the beginning and the seer stone later on. I have heard that the interpreters were confiscated after the incident with the 116 pages and not returned but I do not have a good source for this.

The article you referenced seems to continue this conflation of the term “U&T” with the brown seer stone and a whole host of other things (like the Liahona and the scriptures).

On the one hand I applaud the creative license and making the U&T into more of a metaphor for anything spiritual that helps to provide direction in one’s life. Although not mentioned in the article a patriarchal blessing would certainly seem to qualify as a U&T under this criteria.

OTOH, if we use the term U&T to apply to a whole host of different things then it becomes confusing to know what is actually signified by each usage.

nibbler wrote:

Cites David Whitmer’s All Believers. I haven’t read his source but what’s interesting is that he clarifies; early sections of the D&C were received through the U&T but later sections weren’t.

I seem to remember that there was some contention in the early days of the church when JS stopped using the stone. For a time some believed that only the revelations delivered through the seer stone were genuine. This gave Hyrum Page credence when he started to produce revelations through a stone.

[Anonymous]

As I recall, and I’m sure some of it comes from RSR, they used the terms “urim and thummim” and “seer stone” interchangeably (I think more often referring to the seer stone as urim and thummim.)

[Anonymous]

I have a good internal chuckle when people poke fun at Hyrum Page for thinking he could get revelations out of a rock. I don’t go the full distance but I usually make a comment along the lines of it sounding unusual to us today but in those days it was commonplace.

[Anonymous]

Quote:

I applaud the author for looking at it from a faith promoting viewpoint, but those who are in the middle of a real faith crisis might not get much out of it

.

LDS Scoutmaster, you nailed it. I read the article and felt insulted. Although I recognize the author was trying to state that questions and concerns need to be approached from the certain spiritual happy place, the reality is that I want real solid answers. I don’t want answers that only work if I am feeling especially in touch with the Lord. I want answers that can stand the harsh light of full noon sun. I want real answers to hard questions.

The article essentially was telling people like me to quit being angry, quit looking for answers, put on a happy face, inquire sweetly, and accept whatever pablum they feel like spooning us.

I took the magazine, and ended up Frisbee-ing it across the room.

And yet .. Things must be tough if the leadership is even acknowledging the questioning is occurring.

[Anonymous]

The author is a regular member. It is standard practice to publish things that are submitted by regular members. It happens all the time, and there are good and bad examples.

[Anonymous]

sue wrote:

“One problem with doubt is the intent to obey only after the uncertainty is resolved to the satisfaction of the doubter.”…I did not intend to quit obeying certain rules of the church, it just so happened that i don’t agree with them and/or i question the validity of them.

I walk a line on what I share / what topics I counter at church – but this is one that I speak up for every time. There are cases where some just want to sin, but do NOT assume everyone that is struggling is just wanting to sin. I clearly state, “I can personally testify that this is not true.”

sue wrote:

“Likewise, if you seek an answer to a spiritual question from the Source of all knowledge, then you have to follow His rules to get the answer. This process requires at least a desire to understand the truth and a willingness to follow God’s will”…this statement bothers me for the simple reason i feel like i’m being told that if i’m not getting the answer i desire or need that it’s because im being bad and not behaving, i don’t agree with this.

I have concerns about this issue. I know and I know God knows my heart. The prophet himself could say this to me and I really don’t think I would be too fazed as I KNOW what is in my heart and what I am trying to figure out. My most strident prayer I have ever given was me pleading to know, “With all this new information (now that I know it is actually true) are you trying to tell me that you want me to leave the Mormon church? If so, please hit me on the head even harder as you have my attention, but I don’t have any good feelings on what my next step is” with probably a lot more “please!” in there.

[Author]

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