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I remember reading Brigham young saying something to the effect of ” I fear that one of the worst things that could happen is that the members blindly follow the prophet without questioning”…. Yeah I’m very loosely paraphrasing I know. But so any of you remember what the real quote is and where it can be found? (I suspect JofD). Thanks!
Brigham Young, “Eternal Punishment,” Journal of Discourses, reported by G.D. Watt 12 January 1862, Vol. 9 (London: Latter-Day Saints Book Depot, 1862), 150. Quote:I will say a few words in regard to your belief in being led, guided, and directed by one man. Brother Jackman has said that our enemies hate the fact of our being led by one man. Thousands of times my soul has been lifted to God the Father, in the name of Jesus, to make that verily true in every sense of the word, that we may be led by the man Jesus Christ, through Joseph Smith the Prophet. You may inquire how we are to know that we are so led. I refer you to the exhortation you have heard so frequently from me. Do not be deceived, any of you; if you are deceived, it is because you deceive yourselves. You may know whether you are led right or wrong, as well as you know the way home; for every principle God has revealed carries its own convictions of its truth to the human mind, and there is no calling of God to man on earth but what brings with it the evidences of its authenticity….
What a pity it would be if we were led by one man to utter destruction! Are you afraid of this? I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by Him. I am fearful they settle down in a state of blind self-security, trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders with a reckless confidence that in itself would thwart the purposes of God in their salvation, and weaken that influence they could give to their leaders, did they know for themselves, by the revelations of Jesus, that they are led in the right way. Let every man and woman know, by the whispering of the Spirit of God to themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path the Lord dictates, or not. This has been my exhortation continually.
Sheldon wrote:Brigham Young, “Eternal Punishment,” Journal of Discourses, reported by G.D. Watt 12 January 1862, Vol. 9 (London: Latter-Day Saints Book Depot, 1862), 150.
Quote:I will say a few words in regard to your belief in being led, guided, and directed by one man. Brother Jackman has said that our enemies hate the fact of our being led by one man. Thousands of times my soul has been lifted to God the Father, in the name of Jesus, to make that verily true in every sense of the word, that we may be led by the man Jesus Christ, through Joseph Smith the Prophet. You may inquire how we are to know that we are so led. I refer you to the exhortation you have heard so frequently from me. Do not be deceived, any of you; if you are deceived, it is because you deceive yourselves. You may know whether you are led right or wrong, as well as you know the way home; for every principle God has revealed carries its own convictions of its truth to the human mind, and there is no calling of God to man on earth but what brings with it the evidences of its authenticity….
What a pity it would be if we were led by one man to utter destruction! Are you afraid of this? I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by Him. I am fearful they settle down in a state of blind self-security, trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders with a reckless confidence that in itself would thwart the purposes of God in their salvation, and weaken that influence they could give to their leaders, did they know for themselves, by the revelations of Jesus, that they are led in the right way. Let every man and woman know, by the whispering of the Spirit of God to themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path the Lord dictates, or not. This has been my exhortation continually.
Dude, that quote is freaking amazing. I just had my mind blown. I haven’t felt to shout “Hallelujah!” more than I do now in a long, long time.
In fact, during my faith transition/epiphany, I’ve done exactly what BY mentioned here – I’ve sought out whether certain doctrines and policies of the Church ring true in my mind and in my heart. The ones that do, I keep close. The ones that don’t, I lay aside. You’ve just re-affirmed for me that what I’m doing is right. Hoorah!
I have loved this quote for a long time. I keep a copy of it with me, either to read for myself or to share at special times in class. It really is soul liberating. Thanks Sheldon for the full long one. I actually only carry the second paragraph.
So do we believe BY about this or follow the later leaders when they say ” when the brethren have spoken the thinking has been done” ? I am finding that I can find a quote to make just about anything point I want to make. It seems that we have preconceived notions and no matter who says what, are minds are made up. I do like this quote and I have used it but no one really believes it. Quote:“when the brethren have spoken the thinking has been done”
Since precision is important to me, I need to point out that this is not what was said in the statement that gets referenced all the time. The actual quote is that the debate is over when Prophet speaks – and, even if I don’t like some of the implications, I can’t argue with the general idea it expresses. When a leader of any organization takes an official stance, the debate generally is over within that organization – especially the public debate. If anyone doesn’t believe that, try sending out an email to everyone at work saying the CEO’s statement about something is wrong and there needs to be debate about it – then report back on how it was received.
Apologists and critics take lots of things and twist them into what they weren’t originally, and it doesn’t help anyone to perpetuate those twisted versions – on either side.
Old-Timer wrote:Quote:“when the brethren have spoken the thinking has been done”
Since precision is important to me, I need to point out that this is not what was said in the statement that gets referenced all the time. The actual quote is that the debate is over when Prophet speaks – and, even if I don’t like some of the implications, I can’t argue with the general idea it expresses. When a leader of any organization takes an official stance, the debate generally is over within that organization – especially the public debate. If anyone doesn’t believe that, try sending out an email to everyone at work saying the CEO’s statement about something is wrong and there needs to be debate about it – then report back on how it was received.
Apologists and critics take lots of things and twist them into what they weren’t originally, and it doesn’t help anyone to perpetuate those twisted versions – on either side.
That is exactly what I do Ray. I do speak up if the action or order taken is harmful to someone(the employee or customers).
Sometimes it goes over we’ll, sometimes not. I don’t care if I get fired or not, I can’t live with myself watching harmful ideas or actions spread. I make sure to photograph and video what is going on before I do it to cover my butt thought and show that I am not speaking out of it. Once I leave that org. With proof in hand I present it and talk about it with friends and family about what they ate doing. If its am idea that I don’t agree with, it’s ok. Of the idea or action causes harm to someone emotional or physical I must take action. Manager, CEO, president or otherwise. They ate not above reproach.
Old-Timer wrote:Quote:“when the brethren have spoken the thinking has been done”
This was a line from a ward teaching lesson back in the 40’s when the lessons were published in the Improvement Era. A local Unitarian minister expressed his concern to President George Albert Smith who pointedly disavowed it and said that that was most definitely not church teaching, There’s a nice article in Dialogue about 20 some years ago about it.
I understand it was in a manual, but the actual talk that sparked the manual statement is as I quoted it – and, as GB mentioned, Pres. George Albert Smith repudiated it emphatically. That’s what I meant when I said that apologists and critics twist original statements. In this case, those who wrote the manual and members who continue to preach it are the ones at fault. I should have made that clearer.
I used the quote in a priest’s quorum lesson I taught years ago asking if they agreed with it and then telling the whole story and reading Pres. Smith’s reponse. It was a good eye opener and I hope it stuck with them. Elder uchtdorfs fireside “what is truth” talks to this and Elder Kristofferson talk in conference april 2012 does a great job talking to this Sent from my XT890 using Tapatalk 2
Old-Timer wrote:I understand it was in a manual, but the actual talk that sparked the manual statement is as I quoted it – and, as GB mentioned, Pres. George Albert Smith repudiated it emphatically. That’s what I meant when I said that apologists and critics twist original statements. In this case, those who wrote the manual and members who continue to preach it are the ones at fault.
I should have made that clearer.
Ray, do you have the original talk? I’d love to read it and keep a copy in my files.
Wow, I searched for it and realized my memory was wrong. It originally was said by Elaine Cannon in 1978, when she was the Young Women’s Auxiliary President, and then quoted by N. Eldon Tanner in an Ensign article. It was right at the heart of the reaction to OD2, which explains why she said it – and why Elder Tanner would repeat it, since he had been one of the most vocal in opposition to giving the Priesthood to black men. That actually helps bolster the fact that it isn’t what the Church teaches officially.
church0333 wrote:So do we believe BY about this or follow the later leaders when they say ” when the brethren have spoken the thinking has been done” ?
I am finding that I can find a quote to make just about anything point I want to make. It seems that we have preconceived notions and no matter who says what, are minds are made up. I do like this quote and I have used it but no one really believes it. I agree church0333, much like it seems one can prove whatever one wants to by using scripture. I actually put little stock in what has been said by any GAs. While I believe they can be inspired and/or receive revelation, I don’t believe most of what they say is actually inspired – they are much like the old ladies who speak in sacrament meetings, parroting that which they have been taught their whole lives. They are no doubt sincere and are not purposely teaching falsities. But then we have gems like the one discussed here. They are similar to the discreet scriptures various religions ferret out to justify a belief (we, as a church, are very guilty of this).
That said, I am in the Brigham Young camp on this more so than the Packer “the discussion is over” camp. I believe we’re actually supposed to decide for ourselves about all doctrine (true doctrine, not teachings of the church). Having the confirmation of the Spirit is nice, but I have other issues with that and for the time being have to rely upon my own God-given intellect.
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