Quick question about the WoW

[Anonymous]

jmb275 wrote:

Unfortunately, there is a lot of back and forth on these issues from the scientific world.

That’s what I see. There are very scientific studies. There are studies of the studies, and studies that study the analysis of the studies. It’s all very peer-reviewed and official. They show conclusively that the forbidden four are definitely a little bit healthy, a little bit unhealthy, or they have no significant impact at all. Thank you science. It’s so clear! 😆

The spiritual practice of the WofW is something we all need to come to terms with, and own our belief. The health effects? Nothing significant is going to show up from a new study. The items discussed in the WofW (both the do’s and the don’ts) have gone through thousands of years of human testing by billions of people. Anyone can tell you the range of physical risks and benefits.

We are what we consume. Health and well-being are a part of consuming and living. Health is tied to spirituality. Spirituality is tied to enlightening and ennobling wisdom, even holiness. That is the metaphor presented in the WofW. I believe that metaphor.

[Anonymous]

The idea of it being metaphorical or symbolic or a “spiritual law” is where I seem to be seeing the WoW and many other things in the church, where as a year ago I was very exacting in how I practiced these principles, and believed I was going to be protected or blessed immediately for such.

One thing I wonder about is when you start seeing it more as a metaphor, then does it really matter to take it literally? Maybe I’ll have a beer tonight and see if I feel any different spiritually tomorrow? Will one beer really do anything?

Ok, fact is…I don’t want a beer…so I’m not really gonna do that…but when you break out of Stage 3 faith and that line of thought…does obedience go out the window too?

[Anonymous]

Heber13 wrote:

The idea of it being metaphorical or symbolic or a “spiritual law” is where I seem to be seeing the WoW and many other things in the church, where as a year ago I was very exacting in how I practiced these principles, and believed I was going to be protected or blessed immediately for such.

One thing I wonder about is when you start seeing it more as a metaphor, then does it really matter to take it literally? Maybe I’ll have a beer tonight and see if I feel any different spiritually tomorrow? Will one beer really do anything?

Ok, fact is…I don’t want a beer…so I’m not really gonna do that…but when you break out of Stage 3 faith and that line of thought…does obedience go out the window too?

Such a good point. See, I see that my obedience is now to God and not the church institution. IOW, I am bound to follow the Light of Christ, walk in the Spirit. That path may or may not lead me to “disobey” the Law of carnal commandments.

[Anonymous]

Heber13 wrote:

Ok, fact is…I don’t want a beer…so I’m not really gonna do that…but when you break out of Stage 3 faith and that line of thought…does obedience go out the window too?

That is a very important question to ask. No, I don’t think you throw out obedience. In a Stage 3 mode of thinking, you are focused on expected blessings or negative consequences based on obedience to an external code of conduct you were given by your cultural/religious tradition. It isn’t internalized as your own law and seen as something your created for yourself.

You can’t escape the negative consequences of “disobedience.” Anyone at any stage will suffer the social consequences of violating a social code of their tradition. Anyone at any stage will suffer the physiological consequences of doing something unhealthy (a violation of the WofW). To pick just one aspect, being a drunkard and an alcoholic will still most likely damage your health and distract a person from a spiritual life. You can’t escape that by being clever

I think people start to view the WofW as a religious practice differently at more mature Stages of Faith. I don’t like to make any claims to being mature or right. My view has certainly changed over time, a lot through my crisis of faith process. I still believe I will suffer consequences, both spiritual and physical, for violating what I now see as my personal Word of Wisdom.

[Anonymous]

Valoel wrote:

You can’t escape the negative consequences of “disobedience.” Anyone at any stage will suffer the social consequences of violating a social code of their tradition. Anyone at any stage will suffer the physiological consequences of doing something unhealthy (a violation of the WofW).

Valoel, please expound further. If I then break out of stage 3 faith in mormonism, and realize the WoW is just that, words of wisdom and a careful reminder to not be a drunken bum…good. I will be blessed by that. Ok, I accept that warning.

But if I decide tonight to have a beer, one beer…that’s all…have I broken the word of wisdom? Technically yes. So what?

Am I now unhealthy or am I now unfit for God’s blessings in my life, as opposed to yesterday when I had a sprite and piece of chocolate cake (not against the WoW)? If I start letting go of the fears I used to hold about the teachings of the church, what motive do I have to be obedient? If my motive is to be a good person and be healthy, then I don’t care about one beer. If my motive is to obey the church’s commandment of the word of wisdom, then I do care about one beer. I don’t know how to reconcile letting go of fears yet remaining at the same level of obedience. Instead, I feel like my obedience will be stronger in areas that really matter to me, and if I don’t think WoW matters, then being obedient to it is not of worth, IMO.

What am I missing in my logic?

[Anonymous]

Heber13 wrote:

Ok, fact is…I don’t want a beer…so I’m not really gonna do that…but when you break out of Stage 3 faith and that line of thought…does obedience go out the window too?

As Valoel said, stage 3 obedience is about fear of consequences, or, I would say even for reward. That is, we love our neighbor because it will get us into the CK. In some sense, yes, obedience does go out the window I think. But maybe not completely. Generally, I think we find a higher reason for doing things, and we do those things not because of obedience, but rather because we see value in them. I’m not really a huge fan of “obedience is the first law of heaven.” The reason is because this “law of heaven” has been more abused, caused more death, destruction, and detriment to our species than virtually any “law of heaven” ever has. As I’ve said before, if I had a reliable mechanism for knowing God’s will with high probability I would have no problem being obedient, even if only for obedience’s sake (although I would most definitely want to know why).

I don’t love neighbor because it will help me get to the CK, but rather because I believe in it as one of the truths spoken by the sages!

[Anonymous]

I’m going to quibble here about Fowler out of respect for him and to increase the benefit of our using his model. I think the obedience you are describing is really perhaps Stage 2 obedience. In my experience, at least, I was probably in Stage 3 from age 15 to age 35. At age 15 was my first conversion, when my reasons for obedience changed from Mythic-Literal (Stage 2) to Synthetic-Conventional (Stage 3). Stage 3 is a beginning adult faith. It can see clearly righteousness as its own reward and sin as its own punishment. But it is conventional in that its synthesis never transcends the peer group, and it continues to appeal to authorities.

That’s my understanding at least.

[Anonymous]

Tom Haws wrote:

I’m going to quibble here about Fowler out of respect for him and to increase the benefit of our using his model. I think the obedience you are describing is really perhaps Stage 2 obedience. In my experience, at least, I was probably in Stage 3 from age 15 to age 35. At age 15 was my first conversion, when my reasons for obedience changed from Mythic-Literal (Stage 2) to Synthetic-Conventional (Stage 3). Stage 3 is a beginning adult faith. It can see clearly righteousness as its own reward and sin as its own punishment. But it is conventional in that its synthesis never transcends the peer group, and it continues to appeal to authorities.

That’s my understanding at least.

You’re probably right. I haven’t reviewed Fowler for a while. I digress.

[Anonymous]

WARNING: WALL OF TEXT

Heber13 wrote:

But if I decide tonight to have a beer, one beer…that’s all…have I broken the word of wisdom? Technically yes. So what?

Based on the situation you described, you have broken the current, most common interpretation of what is written in D&C 89 by leaders and members of the Church in general today, aka the “Word of Wisdom.” That much I agree with.

Is that what you personally, deep down believe too? If so, I support that 100%. There is nothing wrong with going that route. You should follow the Spirit. You should be obedient to what God has revealed to you. You should most of all be obedient to yourself. The natural consequences and blessings of your experience and journey will manifest themselves to you if they are “true,” and you will grow in confidence and faith as you sort it all out.

Heber13 wrote:

Am I now unhealthy or am I now unfit for God’s blessings in my life, as opposed to yesterday when I had a sprite and piece of chocolate cake (not against the WoW)?

The very brief answer first. In my personal code, a sprite and a piece of chocolate cake is more “disobedience” to me than a beer. I am only talking in relative terms. I know based on my health and reaction to foods, that all the sugar in a sprite and a piece of cake will make me feel a little sick and uncomfortable within a few minutes. It will distract me from everything else (spiritual and mundane) for a period of time while my body suffers the consequences of my decision.

To be honest, I know from experience in my life that one beer will not do that to me. It will not make me unhealthy. There is a long list of things in my mind that are far more damaging to my body, very common things that are not spelled out in the “forbidden four” most members focus on. I have gone through different phases in my life where I did or did not follow a traditional interpretation of the WofW.

I always want to highlight that I do not have *the* right answer. I may very well be wrong. I may very well change my view in the future, when I receive “further light and knowledge.”

I personally do not believe right now that any tangible substance (food, drink, whatever) has a supernatural taint to it. That is at the core of a more literal and all-or-nothing view of the WofW in my opinion. The thinking is that one sip of beer (just picking an example), and you are now tainted with disobedience and unholy until you repent. I don’t think that is true for me. It has not matched with my experience throughout my life.

Heber13 wrote:

If I start letting go of the fears I used to hold about the teachings of the church, what motive do I have to be obedient?

I recommend you let go of fear in all aspects of your life. Replace fear with a desire to be holy. Those are both motivations. They are different types. They both can lead to obedience. Does God follow His rules because he is afraid of punishment? Or does he obey His own rules because He wants to be holy? It’s a rhetorical question.

Heber13 wrote:

If my motive is to be a good person and be healthy, then I don’t care about one beer.

You might come to that conclusion.

Heber13 wrote:

If my motive is to obey the church’s commandment of the word of wisdom, then I do care about one beer.

To obey the generally accepted, current focus on 4 substances, yes. You should care. In that paradigm, a single drop of beer can taint you forever…

I do not agree with blaming our poor behavior on what other people do. That is never a step forward, but is really many steps backwards. But my reconciliation process has to take into account the actions of early prophets of the restoration, especially Joseph Smith.

He obviously knew the Word of Wisdom inside and out. Why after the revelation did he do the things he did? He was not stupid. I don’t think his worst critics can even claim that with a straight face.

Why would he write in his journal that he enjoyed a glass of beer at Mosiers? Why would he want to remember how he enjoyed a bottle of wine with sister so-and-so, and other members of the Church? Why would he preach a fiery sermon about obedience to the WofW, and then ride around in the most public area of Nauvoo smoking a big fat cigar for all to see? Why would he jump in on one Church court to defend someone accused of violating the WofW in one way, and then condemn another person with different circumstances who was blaming his actions on what he saw “the brethren” do?

What if someone tied me down and poured whiskey down my throat? Would I be tainted? If not, what does that mean? Is it about our desires or about the materials themselves? How much does God actually care? Or is it us making a big deal about it?

I asked all these questions and more.

I found myself watching what JS said, what he wrote and what he practiced. I had to strip all my baggage from growing up and start from square one to see for myself what worked for me and what did not.

Right now, I think God cares as much about it all as I do. I think the consequences I experience are simple natural results of being healthy or not. If I desire to be drunk, wanting to get wild and crazy, go out and do stupid things, then I will be less spiritual and be someone who does stupid things. That is what happens with the results of that desire. I will suffer the consequences of my actions, and we are all different. What harms me may not harm you. I should avoid what harms me, and I should seek what makes me healthy and whole. I am responsible to myself. I am accountable for my actions.

Heber13 wrote:

I don’t know how to reconcile letting go of fears yet remaining at the same level of obedience. Instead, I feel like my obedience will be stronger in areas that really matter to me, and if I don’t think WoW matters, then being obedient to it is not of worth, IMO.

You should be obedient to things that matter to you. You should not be afraid, or be pulled down by things that do not matter to you. Do they matter to you? If so, obey what that is.

Heber13 wrote:

What am I missing in my logic?

Nothing. But you may not be ready to let go of your fears. I am pulling that from your words, it isn’t my judgment. There’s no rush. You know the drill: Go slow. Also make sure you are trading up when making a change, wherever that change leads you.

[Anonymous]

Valoel wrote:

In my personal code, a sprite and a piece of chocolate cake is more “disobedience” to me than a beer. I am only talking in relative terms. I know based on my health and reaction to foods, that all the sugar in a sprite and a piece of cake will make me feel a little sick and uncomfortable within a few minutes. It will distract me from everything else (spiritual and mundane) for a period of time while my body suffers the consequences of my decision.

I personally do not believe right now that any tangible substance (food, drink, whatever) has a supernatural taint to it.

Wow! A physical and spiritual brother. I couldn’t have said it better.

One other thing to consider is the spirit of fasting, a spiritual practice I believe Heber13 alluded to. There is spiritual value in simply abstaining from some given thing. And there is the value of loving submission to or compliance with an unharmful request. That’s a very delicate topic since it is perhaps distorted in the LDS Church and mingled with unrighteous dominion, but it is still a true spiritual practice.

So our legalistic observance of the Word of Wisdom is not entirely unhelpful.

[Anonymous]

Tom Haws wrote:

There is spiritual value in simply abstaining from some given thing. And there is the value of loving submission to or compliance with an unharmful request.

I couldn’t agree more. For example, I think someone keeping the law of Kosher or Halal can make it a very spiritual practice. I think being a vegan could be a spiritual pursuit, beyond just being a physical health practice.

I think a current orthodox practice of the WofW is equal to all those. It could be practiced for spiritual benefits. I’ve experienced that. Which is why I don’t really concern myself with what that latest scientific medical propaganda says about some industry’s product line.

It’s all a spiritual practice, with health benefits to some extent on the side.

[Anonymous]

Valoel, Tom, thanks. All of that which you posted makes a lot of sense. I don’t feel a NEED to now be disobedient, since it is still something good to do and I know I would feel guilty or prideful (rebellious) if I specifically went out to break the law.

There is still some uncomfort or conflict with considering things aren’t so aweful that I have been completely committed to living my entire life, yet now really look at it as not what I thought it was. That will take time for me to get used to.

I REALLY like your statement about always trading up! That will stick with me. Thanks!

I also agree that vegans or those living kosher lives can benefit equally as mormons who live the WoW. I would think that would all be good exercises in self-discipline and health, in God’s eyes.

[Anonymous]

Heber13 wrote:

Valoel, Tom, thanks. All of that which you posted makes a lot of sense. I don’t feel a NEED to now be disobedient, since it is still something good to do and I know I would feel guilty or prideful (rebellious) if I specifically went out to break the law.

If it makes you feel any better, I feel the same feelings about the Law of Chastity. If at some point I was single through divorce or the death of my wife, and my children were all grown and out of the house, and I decided to hit the “dating scene” again, I would be very prudish and traditional.

I am not entirely sure how much it would all matter in the cosmic salvation sense, having doubts … or better … I would say I have lost my fear of losing God’s love and acceptance. Regardless of my more liberal views on all that, I personally would stick to a very traditional and orthodox LDS standard. That is me. I know that about myself. It would *feel* like a violation and an act of disobedience to my own deep, personally held code, and my identity of being “holy.” I don’t want to cross that line just to prove something to myself.

[Anonymous]

Well, chastity for me is part of covenants I made in the temple, so I’m bound by those. I guess one could argue that the law of sacrafice could cover tithing and WoW, but it is not as clearly specified and is left more to interpretation in my mind. Just my thoughts, not necessarily disagreeing with your thoughts.

But in concept, I see it and other commandments all very much the same way. Less about fear and more about seeking Gods will in my life, which provide me blessings of peace from that faith it is Gods will for me.

[Anonymous]

Quote:

I’ve been in my ward for 27 years now, and I don’t believe a single one of my fellow ward members knows. When I go in for my temple recommend, I always feel so guilty when I say that I’m living the Word of Wisdom — just because of those two glasses of wine! On a purely objective level, I have no trouble whatsoever, justifying my response, but I have always wondered if admitting to two glasses of wine a year would keep me from getting the recommend.

I find this a little humorous because it reminds me of my brother, who, not long after his mission went out with some friends and got drunk at a campfire party. He felt a little bad about it and told his bishop what he had done. His bishop simply asked him, “Did you get it out of your system? Are you done?” My brother said yes, the bishop let my brother go with his temple recommend in hand.

I might want the bishop to know, though, but that’s just me.

[Author]

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