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SilentDawning wrote:
Yeah — you posted in another thread that your wife felt betrayed and hurt — how has this impacted her?
We left that meeting and she was still rather emotional – emotions that had spilled over during the meeting. But the next day she was clearly doing much better and told me she was feeling at peace with things. I’m sure it will continue to be a rollercoaster journey for both of us, and I will try and do what I can to soften the landing for her as much as possible. Today, I’ve been feeling an incredible amount of peace both with where I’m at and with being released. I know a large part of that has been all the helpful posts I’ve been reading from this community, but she doesn’t have that same type of support. I wonder if there is a support forum for spouses of those in a faith transition…
mom3 wrote:
You are very kind. I would be raging. I know most members are stage 3ers, but still some compassion would be nice. Since you are being courteous, I will be pissed as he#% for you. That should balance the universe somewhat.Sincerely, I am sorry. Very sorry. Cyber hugs to you and your wife.
Thanks mom3 for raging in my behalf. Was it you that told me to not say anything to my SP until I’m zen calm about things? I really do feel that sort of zen calm right now. Tomorrow that could all change and I could go into a raging swear fest (all in my head), but I’m grateful for the gift of peace right now.
Humans gonna human, but it still appeals me when things like this happen. You are handling it well. I admire and respect that greatly.
Quote:I wonder if there is a support forum for spouses of those in a faith transition…
Is Faces East still active?
To echo what SD said… OUCH!!! The most difficult part of a faith crisis, is that under the “absolute 100% knowledge” that “the Church is true” (whatever that means), there are very few reasons why someone would turn away from their faith; and it all comes down to the temptations of the devil, and the frailty of the soul. We’re told that if we exercise our faith, keep the commandments, go to Church, say our prayers, read the scriptures… that our testimony will be strengthened, and grow brighter and brighter.
But as Uchtdorf put it, “It’s not that simple.” I have this friend back home that went inactive shortly after I went to college. My dad (who is the SP) told me it was because she “read into some anti-mormon literature”. I had the chance to talk with her a few months back. It turns out, her disillusionment with the Church came about when she was sharing the gospel with a friend. The friend asked some questions she didn’t know the answer to, and so she went home to look it up; all 100% from LDS Church sources, nothing anti. And she realized, the Church was deciving, hiding, and sometimes outright lying about certain aspects of our history.
We’ve discussed it plenty of times before, but it is almost impossible for a bishop or SP to empathize with someone in our situation. Our experience goes explicitly against literal TBM doctrine, and against every literal TBM’s worldview. If it’s any comfort, your SP was only trying to make sense of a situation he doesn’t understand. And in the end, it’s really all “sticks-and-stones”.
As a side note, I would love it and laugh so hard, if they brought you into Church Disciplinary Council for “praying in Church”. If I were you, I’d volunteer every Sunday School.
Quote:Hawkgrrl asked – Is Faces East still active?
I don’t believe it is. They moved to Facebook under a different name last I heard.
There is a Facebook group called Another Testament of Marriage. I dropped by it for awhile but it put me off because the believing spouses were in their anger place and it was off putting. But that has been a few years ago, it may be better now. It is moderated by a couple she is the believer he is not.
DT – I repeat my offer to send my email so she can have someone to talk to. I also promise not to sway her. I’ve been in her shoes. I can listen really well.
I trawled through Faces East a little while ago. Most of the posts seemed to be about awful, hideous things the unbelieving spouses were doing: abuse, infidelity, alcoholism, you name it. But most people like us – even those who don’t try to stay – don’t do these things. It’s selection bias. The people who are having the hardest time tend to reach out for support. The Facebook groups are probably similar. The ex-Mormon subreddit has the same kind of selection bias effect going.
While it’s good that places like those exist where people can vent and get help for even the worst effects of a faith transition, they’ll give most observers and participants a warped view of the other side.
dande48 wrote:
As a side note, I would love it and laugh so hard, if they brought you into Church Disciplinary Council for “praying in Church”. If I were you, I’d volunteer every Sunday School.
They would do a disciplinary council because he is not obeying the council of his SP in that circumstance. I recognize you are being facetious, but given the circumstances it would not be outside the realm of possibility if he did teach a lesson or say a prayer. The bishop or SP do have the freedom to impose pretty much any such restrictions at will under “informal probation” and violating such provisions will very likely result in further and more formal discipline. Those who are facing a disciplinary council are often placed on informal probation while awaiting the actual council. It’s a bit like saying you have a bomb in the airport security line.
mom3 wrote:
DT – I repeat my offer to send my email so she can have someone to talk to. I also promise not to sway her. I’ve been in her shoes. I can listen really well.
Thanks for the offer. I’ll ask her and see if she’s interested. She may be inherently distrusting of someone from this site. She knows I post here and I told her what the mission of the site is, and that there are good people here along all points of the faith journey who are simply trying to build each other up and stay in the Church. Her feeling though is that anything outside of lds.org is suspect. But I’ll ask, and thanks for being willing even if she’s not interested. Maybe her mind will change in the future.
DarkJedi wrote:
dande48 wrote:
As a side note, I would love it and laugh so hard, if they brought you into Church Disciplinary Council for “praying in Church”. If I were you, I’d volunteer every Sunday School.
They would do a disciplinary council because he is not obeying the council of his SP in that circumstance. I recognize you are being facetious, but given the circumstances it would not be outside the realm of possibility if he did teach a lesson or say a prayer. The bishop or SP do have the freedom to impose pretty much any such restrictions at will under “informal probation” and violating such provisions will very likely result in further and more formal discipline. Those who are facing a disciplinary council are often placed on informal probation while awaiting the actual council. It’s a bit like saying you have a bomb in the airport security line.
Dande, I laughed out loud when I read your post. Technically, the words my SP used were “you probably shouldn’t pray in church.” He didn’t say I couldn’t or how long I “probably shouldn’t pray” for. Does that mean I can still volunteer to pray if I feel so inclined? I somehow doubt there would be a true disciplinary council for something so petty. Also, what if I get asked to pray? Would I have to refuse or risk disciplinary council? In my meeting he never used the word discipline or probation or even suggested that was what this is. He just made me feel like I was being put on probation.
People who are under discipline – formal or informal – are expected to refuse when asked to do something they are restricted from. Unlike older times, the ward is not informed when someone is under disciplinary action and it’s likely no one beyond the bishop and perhaps his counselors know someone has restrictions (although in some wards it is possible others like ward council are made aware). So it could happen that in a SS class the individual is asked by the unknowing teacher to say a closing prayer and it is expected the person refuses. It can be a very uncomfortable situation on both sides, and it’s why many people who are under disciplinary action don’t go to church or only go to SM. I do understand your situation is different and you are apparently not under discipline at this point. Your OP did indicate a bit differently than “you probably shouldn’t pray” which is different from “you are not permitted pray.” I don’t know your SP or bishop, nevertheless don’t underestimate what they might interpret your SP’s statement to mean.
I have had some experiences in the bishopric where people did “violate” the terms of their discipline by pretty simple things like taking the sacrament or commenting in SS class. The result can be escalated or prolonged discipline because the individual is not “demonstrating repentance” in the view of the leadership. Although in the case with commenting in SS I don’t know what they would have done because the guy was ex’ed. In that case he was passed a note asking him to stop and he did. I suppose if he had continued he might have been banned from attending class. In the case with the sacrament the guy was disfellowshipped at the time and ended up being excommunicated, but had done more than just take the sacrament.
DarkJedi wrote:I do understand your situation is different and you are apparently not under discipline at this point. Your OP did indicate a bit differently than “you probably shouldn’t pray” which is different from “you are not permitted pray.” I don’t know your SP or bishop, nevertheless don’t underestimate what they might interpret your SP’s statement to mean.
It’s hard for me to interpret his statement too. He told me I probably shouldn’t pray, but also told me he had informed my Bishop of the same thing. So kind of sounds like more than just “probably”. I kind of took it to mean he thinks I “probably” shouldn’t pray, but because he thinks that he told the Bishop so it could be enforced. Maybe I should just ask him in an email, but I kind of don’t want to interact with him for at least a little while.
There is a group called “Former Mormons with believing spouses”. I am going blank on the name of the FB group name for the “other side of the fence” (believing spouses with former believers” or something like that).
I know if you message Marie Taylor Elser on FB and ask about the group for believers with spoused that have left the church she can get your wife setup.
https://www.facebook.com/marie.elser/about?lst=1793073455%3A1379727952%3A1498053618 ” class=”bbcode_url”> https://www.facebook.com/marie.elser/about?lst=1793073455%3A1379727952%3A1498053618 DoubtingTom wrote:
DarkJedi wrote:
I do understand your situation is different and you are apparently not under discipline at this point. Your OP did indicate a bit differently than “you probably shouldn’t pray” which is different from “you are not permitted pray.” I don’t know your SP or bishop, nevertheless don’t underestimate what they might interpret your SP’s statement to mean.
It’s hard for me to interpret his statement too. He told me I probably shouldn’t pray, but also told me he had informed my Bishop of the same thing. So kind of sounds like more than just “probably”. I kind of took it to mean he thinks I “probably” shouldn’t pray, but because he thinks that he told the Bishop so it could be enforced. Maybe I should just ask him in an email, but I kind of don’t want to interact with him for at least a little while.
What I’d be interested to know, if it is official “Church discipline”, on what charge? Specifically, what would Tom need to do, in order to be able to serve and pray within the Church, according to the dictates of his conscience? What “sin” has Tom committed, and how would he “repent” from it? I honestly doubt they could come up with a legitimate charge, which is why it was phrased as “probably”; in which case, Tom can do whatever he feels is best.
The trouble here, is that the SP turned Tom’s decision into a Stake decision. “You can’t break up with ME. I’m breaking up with YOU!” I think you’re best off not speaking to the SP for a while. If he wants to release you, fine. Last time I was invited to meet with the SP, was when I turned down a calling to serve in the EQP. At first I accepted, but within a day I cancelled. I don’t owe him an explaination; neither do you.
Late to the game, I’ve been busy and I haven’t had a chance to visit StayLDS much of late. This may have already been covered but… DoubtingTom, you’re handling the situation like a champ. I wanted to focus on one aspect, you have another thread out there,
Help talking to a spouseDoubtingTom wrote:Then he called my wife in and told me and her that he thought I was just being prideful and that was the cause of my faith crisis, and re-iterated that he thought this was clearly just the adversary trying to destroy my family.
One stepping stone in my faith development was looking up to bishops and stake presidents. They were ecclesiastical leaders with a healthy dose of celebrity status mixed in. Their words carried weight. They were judges in Israel. I don’t know if that’s a common place for people to land in their own journeys but I’m wondering where your DW falls on that spectrum – 0: the SP is just some guy; 10: the SP is god’s surrogate.
The concern is that your SP may have had a great influence on how your DW views you. Like you could be candidate for husband of the year through your
actionsbut if the SP saysyou’re guilty of pride and Satan is using you as a tool to destroy your family it doesn’t matter how awesome you’re being, the SP’s unrighteous judgement sticks. Ugh. I’m sorry that happened to you… but I suppose you can’t learn to be zen in placid waters.
:crazy: I’ve had a chance to read the thread now, probably should have done that first. I know what anxiety feels like 
Sudden release from a very visible calling. Whispers in WC about asking people not to let you to pray or teach lessons…
Congrats, you’re now an evil… whatever the worst sin someone can imagine is.
:clap: Humans gonna human.
DoubtingTom wrote:
Also, what if I get asked to pray? Would I have to refuse or risk disciplinary council?
My vote is you pray. It is better that one man should perish than that a tray of donuts fail to strengthen and nourish a nation. Greater good.
DoubtingTom wrote:
Would I have to refuse or risk disciplinary council?
Stand up and tell everyone, “No, I’m not allowed to pray. The SP
reallydoesn’t like my choice of favorite color.” :angel: :angel: :angel: :angel: :angel:
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