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I’m curious, in a case like this, is there an ecclesiastical appeal a member can make? Regarding a verbal suggestion? No.
The SP told DT: Quote:…Furthermore, he said he had told my bishop that he didn’t want me to serve in any callings requiring me to teach in any capacity and that I shouldn’t pray in church either.
Then he called my wife in and told me and her that he thought I was just being prideful and that was the cause of my faith crisis, and re-iterated that he thought this was clearly just the adversary trying to destroy my family.
This is more than a verbal suggestion, isn’t it? What am I missing? This is a disciplinary action with no recourse.
Minyan Man wrote:
The SP told DT:Quote:…Furthermore, he said he had told my bishop that he didn’t want me to serve in any callings requiring me to teach in any capacity and that I shouldn’t pray in church either.
Then he called my wife in and told me and her that he thought I was just being prideful and that was the cause of my faith crisis, and re-iterated that he thought this was clearly just the adversary trying to destroy my family.
This is more than a verbal suggestion, isn’t it? What am I missing? This is a disciplinary action with no recourse.
Still I think the answer is no since it doesn’t seem to be formalized. If this were the bishop instituting restrictions you might chat with the SP if you thought it unfair. I believe the SP is generally unlikely to override the bishop unless he perceives it really is unfair. In this particular case the SP is already part of it, so no recourse.
In the case of a disciplinary council there is an appeal process. If done by a bishop you can appeal to the SP followed by the FP. If done by the SP the appeal is to the FP. I do remember reading a comment by Elder Oaks that sometimes such appeals are overturned and I believe it is in this Trib Talk:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIJ6gL_xc-Mhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIJ6gL_xc-M” class=”bbcode_url”> Minyan Man wrote:
I’m curious, in a case like this, is there an ecclesiastical appeal a member can make?
I certainly have no plans or even the remotest desire to try and appeal this. This all seemed pretty informal to me, even though the results FELT more severe than necessary.
Don’t let the member with PRIVATELY expressed doubts or disbelief pray. Heaven forbid! What might he say in his prayers? What if he starts mentioning Joseph’s wives or native american DNA? Didn’t Holland say something about how there’s room for those with doubts in the choir? Apparently my SP didn’t get the message…
DT, what are your plans regarding church from here on? As a side note: your experience reinforces my resolve to keep a low profile. That is a sad comment to make. The SP doesn’t know who I am. During sacrament (& other meetings) I sit in the back & ask few questions (usually).
I have a job that brings me no attention. There are no administrative or training meetings to attend.
I have a TR. During the TR interviews I answer yes & no. There is no comments, questions or opinions.
There are very few social contacts. Any social contacts are very benign. When I swim, I make no ripples in the water
It works for me. AND that’s the way I want it.
dande48 wrote:
To echo what SD said… OUCH!!!The most difficult part of a faith crisis, is that under the “absolute 100% knowledge” that “the Church is true” (whatever that means), there are very few reasons why someone would turn away from their faith; and it all comes down to the temptations of the devil, and the frailty of the soul. We’re told that if we exercise our faith, keep the commandments, go to Church, say our prayers, read the scriptures… that our testimony will be strengthened, and grow brighter and brighter.
Elder Wirthlin added that simply being tired is one reason people fall off the wagon. I found that repeated harsh treatment by leaders is another reason that can affect mental and physical health. It has nothing to do with pride, or sin.
And sometimes, the way the church and its leaders have conducted themselves over the years is a reason.
I wish your SP had’ve said that he would release you, but that he wants you to be involved in spite of your faith crisis. He could have said something like “I know you want to live a good life, that your marriage and life is entwined with the church, and we want you to continue to experience joy in those aspects of your experience. Pray in church but stick to common ground with your own beliefs in the church. Don’t accept teaching assignments if you don’t feel you can teach the lesson without injecting doubt into the class.
But be careful — this is a place to strengthen the faith of others. You can share doubts and concerns with me and your bishop, but be careful you don’t impact the faith of others here — OK?”
And then schedule an annual meeting with you or similar.
I would simply get you to commit to keep your doubts from expanding into the general membership and hurting the faith of others. I am NOT saying you can’t provide opposing ideas that are within the general boundaries of faithfulness. But I’d make it clear that you shouldn’t go sharing doubts or historical problems or whatever in meetings, potentially triggering faith crisis in others.
Speaking personally as SD, I’d love it if we could talk about such things, but I am adopting the perspective of a priesthood leader with a mandate to “watch over the church” and the existing cultural value that all must be Polyanna at church. And trying to come out with an approach that would affirm you, while also preventing any untoward effects on the membership as a whole.
And this isn’t much different than what we advocate at StayLDS — not to bring down the faith of others, but to find out own way satisfies the needs of the one, and the needs of the many.
Your SP’s approach, although delivered in a loving tone, represents a form of ostracization that I don’t think helps someone in faith crisis. They have just lost a portion of their faith — now we pile on and take away the softer benefit of community??? No way. That shows how fast organizational interests eclipse kindness to the one. Silly SP.
Minyan Man wrote:
DT, what are your plans regarding church from here on?
I’m still working on that, but that was also the case before my meeting with the SP. I have decided that I will figure things out on my own terms in accord with what’s best for my wife, children, and me (ideally in that order). I won’t let my SP or any other member get in the way of that (hopefully).
That is the ideal. On the other hand, as someone else here said, “humans gonna human” and I hope there won’t be hurtful chatter that could make my TBM spouse feel less included or, worse, increase her feelings of hurt and anger towards me. I’m sure EQ will be awkward the first few times. We’ll see.
Right now I don’t have much to hold onto in terms of actual belief (recognizing it’s a journey in progress), so my main motivation for continuing to attend will be family support. Hopefully I can enjoy the social aspects of community and gain spiritual insight while there. I don’t want each week to be me just sitting in bitter angst, silently disagreeing with everything because that would be a waste of my time.
So, long answer to your question. Short answer – I don’t know. I have my hopes but we’ll see how it actually plays out. Maybe I’ll ditch out after SM sometimes. Maybe I’ll (gasp) say a prayer in SS or EQ! Time will tell…
SilentDawning wrote:I wish your SP had’ve said that he would release you, but that he wants you to be involved in spite of your faith crisis. He could have said something like “I know you want to live a good life, that your marriage and life is entwined with the church, and we want you to continue to experience joy in those aspects of your experience. Pray in church but stick to common ground with your own beliefs in the church. Don’t accept teaching assignments if you don’t feel you can teach the lesson without injecting doubt into the class.
But be careful — this is a place to strengthen the faith of others. You can share doubts and concerns with me and your bishop, but be careful you don’t impact the faith of others here — OK?”
And then schedule an annual meeting with you or similar.
SD, I would have loved to receive a response like that. (Can someone say future Bishop?)
It’s like he was saying, “DT, I want you to know how much we love you and want you to be a part of this church. There is room for you here. We love you so much that we don’t want you to teach in church or pray in church, or really be involved in any meaningful capacity, such is the love that we have for you.”
Me: Ummmm. Come again?
Quote:Mom3 wrote:
“There is a Facebook group called Another Testament of Marriage. I dropped by it for awhile but it put me off because the believing spouses were in their anger place and it was off putting. But that has been a few years ago, it may be better now. It is moderated by a couple she is the believer he is not. “
I am a member of the sister site — Former Mormons with Believing Spouses. My husband was using Another Testament of Marriage. He found it full of complaints of all the horrific habits the ex-mo spouses had developed. It was not helpful for him. He kept looking at me and expecting me to suddenly become a some crazied pole-dancing stripper. Eh .. not gonna happen.
A Thoughtful Faith is an excellent online forum for so many. This forum is good. So many sites seem so full of people with horrific and messy marital problems. Church or lack of church has become the excuse for too many issues that are far beyond that.
DoubtingTom wrote:
Minyan Man wrote:
DT, what are your plans regarding church from here on?
I’m still working on that, but that was also the case before my meeting with the SP. I have decided that I will figure things out on my own terms in accord with what’s best for my wife, children, and me (ideally in that order).
I won’t let my SP or any other member get in the way of that (hopefully). I second the part in bold. I had an interesting convo with my daughter. I can’t remember if I told you guys, but she will likely get married in the temple. I don’t have a TR. We had a convo about and it was left that
a) family are the most important people on earth. Church people may seem important and influential for a while, but now, 25 years after my marriage, NONE of the people involved in my life at that time from Church are important anymore. None of them, except maybe a good friend who thinks I’m apostate and has kind of rejected me. Meanwhile, family is still important — even the non-mems.
b) Given the importance of family, we will NOT let the church come between our family relationships. Not like it did in my non-mem family when the church imposed the one-year waiting period on me. I chose the temple over my non-mem family and it was awful.
It was a good conversation. I accept her if she decides to get married in the temple without us there, and she accepts me if I decide not to go to her sealing.
It was wonderful. Family should transcend the church. Not church transcending the family.
The latter makes for lonely members….
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