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“Social justice is more than empty rhetoric. It requires strong empathetic identification with the underdog a process requiring critical reflection. Getting to this point is a painful process because many deeply held beliefs come under scrutiny. Those who are willing to engage these ideological constructions of the self will emerge as champions of equality…And can be counted on one hand.” -Darron Smith
http://mormonstories.org/?p=81 “Mormon Stories #022, 023, and 024: Black and Mormon-The Darron Smith Story” March 30, 2006.overit, fwiw, there really isn’t a “defense of Mormons” effort in any of my comments – and that’s true of valoel and Hawkgrrrl, as well. All of us are at different stages concerning different topics, and we tend to free flow a lot – speaking from different experiences and lifestyles. I, for example, try hard to look at everything from both sides – so my comments often reflect that. When a discussion seems to be tending predominantly toward one interpretational perspective, I tend to respond by drawing attention to the other perspective. That’s all that happened in my comment – using my experience living in the Deep South to try to give a little perspective to the overall discussion. I write lots of things that don’t toe any orthodox line and aren’t “defenses” – except in the sense that I have come to be wary of “attacks” (blatant or subtle) and tend to seek balance in all things. I’ve worked on becoming more charitable and balanced, so perhaps that comes out in attempts to provide a different perspective in some of these threads.
I know that can be hard to distinguish for those who have felt attacked, but none of the people you mentioned are attackers or dismissers by nature or inclination. We just all tend to sympathize with the individual situation then discuss the broader implications of the issue being discussed.
Finally, I think this went the way it did largely because of the title of the post. It’s not titled as an introduction but rather as about a certain topic – so the discussion became primarily about the topic and not you personally. I apologize if what I said seemed to be about you and a defense of those who hurt you. It certainly wasn’t intended that way.
Quote:First, have you ever been a target of persistent, vicious gossip? If not, I am so glad (sincerely). It is brutal! Second, I welcome a healthy political debate of any kind, and love that people can express their dissent. It sounds like this is what you are experiencing in your community. In mine, it is racist. Obama’s race is brought up constantly, especially in seminary. In my opinion, even if they were not being overtly racist, people would not be so outraged if he was white. I never witnessed this kind of virulent outrage over Clinton?!
These are sensitive issues, but ignoring them, or pretending that they are not significant enough to cause people to fall away from the church is erroneous and seems ill-informed. Just my opinion. I like the following quote from Darron Smith, who has written on the issue of racism in the church. The quote reminds me that I need to be even more dedicated to these issues than I am lest I am guilty of promoting “empty rhetoric.” I have attached an interesting interview he gave in which he explains these problems much more eloquently than I.
Have I ever been the target? Sure. I was trying to empathize as I have lived in a small Utah town where gossip was a huge and destructive problem and where I saw a bishop try to make things better. Not sure why that would make you defensive. Hmmm…… I am sorry you couldn’t see that.
And with regards to the racist stuff, I didn’t mean to downplay what you have experienced. Quite the contrary. I simply meant to share an alternate experience that might highlight that the ignorance of a few doesn’t necessarily define the character of the whole. I don’t believe that the church world wide is a racist force. I think there are pockets of racism and it appears you are experiencing some of that. My intension was not to downplay your experience. My intension was to comfort it. Just because I don’t experience what you do doesn’t mean I am ignorant or pretending. I hope I can invite you to relax. I can see these issues are important to you. I appreciate that.
I am sorry if I came across as dismissive or defensive. I am sure what you see is really happening in your community. It sounds very plausible to me. I clipped out two comments in your introduction that cause me to want to broaden the discussion and examine the difference between our local communities, and a broad generalization about all of Mormonism and Mormon culture overit wrote:I am completely tired of the racism, sexism and vicious social surveillance (gossip, cliques) that is inherent in
Mormon culture. What has caused my latest and most severe crisis of faith is the constant racism within the church that no one seems to care about.I am in the Church. I care about it. You are in the Church. You care about it.
I am sure these problems happen in Mormon towns. I know they do. But it seems a little harsh to say that nobody in the whole world of Mormonism or Mormon culture cares about this at all, and in fact it is encouraged by our religion. Most members of the Church don’t live in the Mormon corridor anymore, the majority don’t even live in the US.
I know there are problems. But in my mind, there are two approaches to helping make things better. One is to make sure everyone knows how horrible and loathsome they are, and they must never forget the guilt over this because of how rotten we all are deep down. The other way in my mind is to celebrate the positive changes and victories, and encourage people around me to do more of it. Is the glass half-empty or half-full?
You have been personally hurt by this. For that, I feel very bad. It pains me to hear about experiences like yours. Members of the Church really should be better than that. They should know better, and they should be building positive, inclusive, uplifting communities. If they don’t, they are not living the Gospel.
Even here in the cradle of liberal thinking (California), I hear LDS comments which are racist. My closest friend in my ward, a retired engineer with a good education, recently remarked in a very negative way about “those brown & black people,” completely disregarded that I’m Native American. Maybe he thinks I will be one of those who will get a white skin in the hereafter (personally I see the Savior as a dark-skinned man, in alliance with his Jewish Middle-East background). Other comments at the ward, a total distrust toward our President. I alone have prayed for him publicly in a Sacrament Meeting setting (probably the last time I will be asked). I do listen carefully to the way prayers are formatted, am I the only one? overit – I’m sorry if you found my second comment dismissive. I assume from your last comment that you found my first comment acceptable. As Valoel said, you and I are both Mormons, and we don’t tolerate racism, or sexism I would add. I believe in calling it out and not allowing it to slide or people to assume I agree with their rhetoric if they say things that are racist or sexist. Let me clarify my second comment since it’s the one that seemed condescending. For that I am sorry. It wasn’t my intent. The site isn’t here to dismiss people’s feelings, but rather to help them find strategies that work for them so that they can “Stay LDS.” Not all strategies work for all people, BTW. That’s OK. These are two strategies that help me with the specific situation you described, which is the only reason I mentioned them.
Quote:1 – we have to recognize the difference between human foibles that exist both in and out of the church (even if we are seeing them inside the church) and issues that inherently belong to the church (with a valid doctrinal basis, not just someone’s opinion or misunderstanding of doctrine).
Is the church racist and sexist or are some people who are racist and sexist attracted to the church? Personally, I think it’s the latter. And I think we need to find ways to make it uncomfortable to be racist or sexist in the church. That may be reverse-intolerance on my part, but I think it’s the best way to go. And as I said in my earlier comment, I don’t allow people to make racist or sexist remarks in my hearing unchallenged, whether at church or elsewhere. There have been a few kooky individuals here or there who needed someone to snap them back in line, but the vast majority of Mormons I have known have not been racists or sexists (I have seen more sexism than racism, personally) and are probably less so than the majority of Evangelicals I have encountered (for the reason that follows). I have found that racism and sexism tend to manifest most among people from very rural areas (small town effect) or with lower income and/or education levels, which shows me that those traits are more linked to fears associated with lack of economic security and xenophobia. IMO, this is not specifically a Mormon issue.
Quote:2 – we have to resist the halo effect, in which one or two unpleasant pet issues eclipse our total church experience.
You may have other issues that you want to discuss, but this post was about two issues: racism and sexism. These are emotionally charged issues. Perhaps they are more important to you than whatever good you may see in the church, and if so, that’s what halo effect is. We ALL experience it. For me, polygamy and patriarchy are highly charged issues. But I realize that it’s not the entirety of my church experience. It’s just a simple reminder to consider the whole picture, not only for you, but for anyone reading here. I’m sorry if it seemed dismissive. Everyone on this site has one or two (or more) pet issues. So, probably, do all church members. It’s just a simple reminder that our pet issues are usually huge to us and often blind spots or miniscule to those around us who continue to ignorantly offend.
George: your post makes me so sad, and I think points out the problems with racism within the church. I am so sorry you have to deal with this. In my opinion, people don’t realize how hurtful subtle forms of racism (tokenism, exotocism) can be. These problems are certainly not restricted to the church, but I also think the church promoted some pretty weird/harmful doctrine concerning race that though technically has been dismissed, these “traditions” continue to inform the culture of the church. I also think these experiences can be more hurtful for reasons I’ve mentioned in another post. I think the essence of spirituality demands some level of vulnerability, which can make a racist comment even more harmful in the context of the church. I don’t think most people attend worship services, or participate in the membership of church with “their dukes up” so to speak, because we expect a level of fellowship and safety. Hang in there, George. Quote:I’ve realized that to do so would necessitate calling out members of the church who are using “Mormonism” to justify their hateful actions
All the more reason to address it, IMO. But it sure is tough if it is such a vocal majority in your area as you say. That has really not been my experience. I have encountered it, but rarely, and it has always been marginalized by the majority where I’ve been. It’s hard to correct someone productively when you see them as a bigoted, uneducated dolts, and given the situation, I’m not sure how else to look at them. It’s hard.
My parents are somewhat racist (from small mid-western towns), but by calling it out and pointing out that it’s inconsistent with their Mormon beliefs (and debunking the folklore as well), we as their kids have gotten them to the point that they are able to admit it and temper it. But they are old (in their 80s). They are at least conscious of their problem and apologetic about it. Letting it go unaddressed doesn’t serve anyone.
Quote:But, for however many intellectual and personal issues I have with the church, for some reason, I can’t let go, nor can I deny the blessings I have received through my personal relationship with God.
Overit,
It sounds like you have been through so much. I appreciate what it is like to feel such intense feelings. I am not feeling that way now as I am finding more peace in my mind about the imperfections of the church and the people in it and what I am to do about all of it. In one of my first threads on this site, Hijolly posted something simple and profound about how the gospel and eternal truth is different than the organization and the people. It really comforted me that day and that peace has kinda stayed with me.
A lot of the painful arguments I have in my mind really are about the weaknesses and blindness and limits of other people serving the in church and then just in life. I feel like part of my journey has been to come to terms with all that imperfection out there and all of it inside of me. There are painful people in my life whose own issues seem to give them permission to persecute. And too often I am one of those painful people too as I spend too much time in painful thought processes whether it is perfectionism or controlling others and outcomes or unloving reactionary judgments. I guess from a more global view I think there are all kinds of racisms that happen when people haven’t learned all the lessons of love.. loving themselves first and then loving others too. But then I look at myself and I know I have my own configuration of enlightenment and ignorance and I somehow feel an empathy for all of us as we try to navigate this earth existence. I know I need patience. I guess I believe everyone else does too.
So….what to do? I can’t deny my blessings and spiritual confirmations either. Perhaps God isn’t so worried about the weakness of the church and people because he understands process and progression better than we do. He certainly seems to be able to love me inspite of mine as he helps me heal all of it at the same time. There is so much pain in this world….and so much we can do to stop it. But I think we have to lead out in a spirit of love and letting go. We can be an example and use our talents and God given understanding to do so, but we can’t change people or allow ourselves to get tied up in knots because others don’t think or do like we think they should. And for many of our issues with the church, I am not sure if we have the power to make those changes either. As far as I can tell it seems to be the will of God to let each individual, no matter their standing or station or date of birth, choose or reject his gospel in whatever degree. I often feel that I mistake when I spend too much time focusing on the mistakes of others or things outside the scope of my influence or stewardship or maybe when I try so hard to move mountains that aren’t mine to move. I am learning that with my inlaws and how I object to so much of how they think and act and certainly how they treat me. And just when I have had enough and my cries for justice are all I muster…. the Lord has intervened in my thinking and taught me to worry more about my own journey and the scope of my influence and to let Him worry about the rest. I find that when I let go I am more able to love myself and them…..and their “stuff” has much less power to disrupt my peace or disable my capacities of service.
Maybe you have been blessed with certain perspectives about the weaknesses of those around you and maybe even the solutions. But I wonder if you are taking too much on. We influence people best from a anchored place of love. And sometimes we just have to let go and let it be what it will be. Maybe it is more about the seeds we plant than the crop we reep. And maybe its more about loving eternal truth than it is about needing to church to always do it right the first time.
Love yourself and take care during this time of emotional upheaval. Maybe if we all tried to love each other without focusing on all the weakness we would be inadvertantly healing them.
Love and comfort to you,
Poppy
Overit: “And, yes, there are so many other problems that have brought me to this point, but racism has become my breaking point for the following reason…”
Hi Overit, George here. Thanks for your comments. Racism is a big problem with me & social advancements as well, especially for women and gays (I’ve revealed my two gay brothers and son in another blog in this website). It seems overwhelming at times. I’d retreat to my Creek grandparents grape arbor, and climb into the old iron bed, but they’re long gone and you can never really go back…
When I first came here (STAYLDS), I had a letter of resignation in my truck. I was right on the edge. I have retrenched some. I have tried to realize the church is trying hard with a situation it doesn’t fully understand. I smile at our black President and female Secretary of State, even as I look at the chart of our LDS leaders (in all their whiteness). I’m looking for good things within the church. I appreciate my mission to reservation Indians. As an urban Indian it proved invaluable in my efforts to understand my cousins & friends.
I continue to turn my cheek, but I will not be silent. I recently signed a petition of reconciliation for consideration in SLC. Who know what tomorrow will bring, perhaps a special announcement in General Conference? I pray silently as an old man, to the Giver of Breath…
I have always maintained and will forever maintain that each individual member has the right to his/her own political opinions, motivations, affiliations etc. We also have a constitutional right to “freedom of speech”. My one and only request is that the LDS Church formally refuse to allow racist, misogynistic, homophobic organizations to use official church copyrighted materials as their official icons. There is one organization that is so extreme in the area of racism, misogyny and homophobia that they are listed on “Hatewatch” and may have come to the attention of the Department of Homeland Securities Domestic Terrorist watch list. Please, if there are any active Latterday Saints who have any control over this issue, please help. I have pleaded in vain to separate the church from these groups – to no avail. The problem is that these groups are very strongly opposed to equal rights for women so they will always side with the church on issues such as the Equal Rights Amendment. They are also profoundly homophobic and will always side against homosexuals in all areas of civil rights including marriage. This makes these groups the “best friend and ally” in all of these political battles. This is my single issue that has caused all of my fears and doubts about the church. This is the one and only reason why I have become inactive. I say the effects of a tragic and terrible hate crime committed by these groups. I simply cannot be active in a Church which allows these groups to use Church copyrighted materials to promote their cause.
OK MWallace, I give up. Who are these groups?
Hi Bruce, I don’t want to open up a political can of worms and cause this thread to be shut down. If I name specific names, the post will have to be deleted because it is a legal and political issue.
I will only give an example here. In the late 1970’s, the the LDS Church, under Prophet Spencer W. Kimball and Relief Society President Barbara Smith, launched a campaign to defeat the ratification of the Equal Rights Amendment (ERA). We sent our own Relief Society to represent LDS women at a women’s conference. I was a lady missionary at the time, serving at Penn State University. I fully supported our church leadership. President Barbara Smith stated that our biggest concern was that women could be legally drafted to serve in the military. She appeared on Phil Donahue (I think) and explained that it would be “go out and serve in the military and then come home and raise the next generation” (something to that effect). The concern is that women would have to learn to kill and then come home from war and learn to be loving mothers (very hard for women, very hard). I supported President Kimball and President Barbara Smith on this issue.
The problem was that the Klu Klux Klan or KKK was also very opposed to the ratification of the ERA and also sent delegates to the women’s conferences. Some KKK organizers began to approach LDS women and say, “we are here to help you stop ERA”, donate money to us or sign up with us because we are your ally in the fight against ERA. A few unsuspecting Relief Society Sisters were fooled and signed up or gave money to these organizations. They honestly thought that they were supporting and sustaining the Prophet as he admonished them to “do all you can to defeat ERA”. Now the KKK had our money and some members had signed on, not being familiar with this organization. It wasn’t that these sisters were racist, it was that they were naive. They cried and said that they didn’t know. These groups may ask for ward telephone rosters, visiting teaching lists, BYU student directories. They may use these groups for fundraisers or political campaigns.
Now, that was the late 1970’s. Fast forward to 2008. Same exact thing, the only difference is the issue is defeating gay rights. The names have changed, but the story is the same.
Thanks for that. I had heard bits and pieces of such but not as concise. I certainly understand your concern.
I don’t have a lot of time right now to post, but I did want to briefly comment on the thread from George and MWallace: Once again, we may want to move this discussion to another thread, but I am glad we have been able to share our concerns. I think so much of this (racism; radical affiliations) is due to not being educated (not necessarily in the traditional sense, but informed). So many people in my area listen to radical radio/tv personalities without even questioning or researching the things they promote. Sometimes I think it is easier to “follow the crowd” than to actually have to think for yourself. But maybe if more people begin to address these things within our own families/friends/wards (I’m thinking of hwwkgrrl’s previous post) we can make a difference?
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