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Post faith crisis – do you feel it is morally defensible to allow children (3, 4, 5 yr. olds for example) to be raised in the church knowing the impacts that orthodox teachings and the twists members put on these teachings could have on your child in the future? I think the church does a lot of good. I also feel that on a personal level it (leaders and teachers) can do a lot of harm. My wife is a convert to the church and I feel she has a much more healthy relationship with Christ than the one I have as someone who grew up in the church. I worry about having to undo x% of what my daughter is taught each Sunday or having ideas placed in her mind that aren’t correct. Religion can be strong medicine for children IMO.
I think it can be beneficial. I have seen the fruits in my daughter. I am actually happy and supportive of her current orthodox views. As a parent, you have a unique opportunity to also correct and qualify many erroneous statements that occur in the child’s church education — just as you do with secular education, etcetera.
I think that if one sees the church as a good support to youth on issues such as morality, responsibility, and service, and your role as an “inoculator” of its unhealth aspects, you can have a child that is reaonsably well adjusted.
Also, your conversations will likely make your child more open-minded than the average Mormon. I believe too that I will be there for her when/if she has her own faith crisis.
I agree with SD. The church is a good organization with many good people. I recognize the faults as much as anyone, but the real question for me would be, if my children were not to be raised in the church , where or how should they be raised? We were also just reminded last general conference that parents are the primary teachers of the gospel. https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2014/10/parents-the-prime-gospel-teachers-of-their-children?lang=eng ” class=”bbcode_url”> https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2014/10/parents-the-prime-gospel-teachers-of-their-children?lang=eng Quote:As parents, we are to be the prime gospel teachers and examples for our children—not the bishop, the Sunday School, the Young Women or Young Men, but the parents. As their prime gospel teachers, we can teach them the power and reality of the Atonement—of their identity and divine destiny—and in so doing give them a rock foundation upon which to build. When all is said and done, the home is the ideal forum for teaching the gospel of Jesus Christ.
If there are church teachings (as opposed to gospel teachings) we think our children should have clarified, and for many of us here there are, they are correctable at home (or in the car or on walks or around a fire). That’s not to say we shouldn’t teach the gospel to our children the way we want them to learn it too, but frankly the church gets that fairly correct.
SilentDawning wrote:I believe too that I will be there for her when/if she has her own faith crisis.
What if she never needed to have one? And how would you justify her upbringing once she knew you weren’t really a TBM? (I mean no offense by this)
When we have to adjust meanings of words like prophet, true, scripture etc. to be able to cope it makes me struggle with how exactly do I teach this to my daughter and feel that I am being honest and authentic. It seems like on some level you have to believe the church is currently in some state of apostasy with itself to justify the cafeteria/alternate definition approach.
I have done it, and my kids are well-adjusted and their own unique selves. Many thousands of others have done so, as well. It takes attention and charity and careful thought, but that is true of good parenting in its entirety.
Paulista wrote:SilentDawning wrote:I believe too that I will be there for her when/if she has her own faith crisis.
What if she never needed to have one? And how would you justify her upbringing once she knew you weren’t really a TBM? (I mean no offense by this)
When we have to adjust meanings of words like prophet, true, scripture etc. to be able to cope it makes me struggle with how exactly do I teach this to my daughter and feel that I am being honest and authentic. It seems like on some level you have to believe the church is currently in some state of apostasy with itself to justify the cafeteria/alternate definition approach.
As a member of the forum and not as a moderator, I’m not sure apostasy is the right word to use here. I fully recognize that people in the church have faults, including teaching things as doctrine that are not. I don’t buy “the church is perfect but the people are not” – I don’t see the church as perfect. Imperfection and apostasy are not the same.
That said, like Ray indicates, many people have done it. I have found in my own family that I don’t have to redefine prophet, true, or scripture for them, even though my personal definitions probably don’t match those with a more orthodox bent. It can be done using the common language. Even, and maybe especially, in my family I have maintained a “do no harm” ethic relating to my own faith crisis and transition. My wife and children know I believe in God. They do not know that my view is very Deist, and they don’t need to know. If in the event one of them also eventually has a faith crisis, we can discuss those things more in depth then. For now, I am happy when they understand that not every word spoken by a prophet is scripture – and that is a church teaching.
In our family we parents were dyed in the wool believers. Our kids grew up until the crisis point – solidly participating in church. Yet even then, we had no problem re-addressing things they heard. Now post crisis – we have one fully active – totally devout child. One moderate, mostly social, child (she was that way from the start of her life), one son who is so science minded he wouldn’t be attending anyway or he would long enough to finish school, but when he moved out – not likely to be as dedicated. Point is – kids never turn out like we think. I know non-member parents who have active convert children. I know atheist parents whose children became believers of various religions. (My neighbor is one of them, he always shakes his head trying to figure out how that happened. He did everything a solid atheist would do, and wouldn’t you know it his kid becomes a Christian.)
Just like any parenting decision, we decide how much to tell our kids and when.
Church can be good or bad – you have a huge chance to affect that. That’s a great thing.
I participate with my family in various churches. The children’s program in the LDS church is pretty lame by comparison. I feel that my kids are subtlely getting the massage that there are many perspectives and many churches but lots of great people with a great godly spirit.
I also share with my kids stuff that is on their level. Once I was asked to substitute my daughter’s primary class. The topic was on the youth of Jesus. I found about 6 different paintings depicting Jesus as a child. I asked the class which of them was the real (or most accurate depiction) of Jesus. My daughter already knew the answer that none of them are true in a historically accurate sense. They are all attempts by the artist to imagine what He might have looked like.
Growing up is hard – in or out of the church.
I try to give my kids the support structures that the religious community offers along with a personal filter to interpret the different points of view that they are presented with.
My kids are still young (9 and 7) so I will let you know how it goes.
:thumbup: Thank you for the responses. I love Jacob 5, since it says the pruning will happen right up until the end. I also love the second parable in Matthew 13 about the wheat and the tares, since it says the good fruit and the bad fruit will be left to grow together until the end – for the good of the good fruit, ironically. Thus, incorrect stuff existing in the body of Christ / vineyard / church is a fulfillment of prophecy and evidence of God’s love for us.
That can be a paradigm changer if we let it be.
Roy wrote:I participate with my family in various churches. My kids are still young (9 and 7) so I will let you know how it goes.
:thumbup: I’ve been thinking about doing this too.
Old-Timer wrote:I love Jacob 5, since it says the pruning will happen right up until the end.
I also love the second parable in Matthew 13 about the wheat and the tares, since it says the good fruit and the bad fruit will be left to grow together until the end – for the good of the good fruit, ironically. Thus, incorrect stuff existing in the body of Christ / vineyard / church is a fulfillment of prophecy and evidence of God’s love for us.
That can be a paradigm changer if we let it be.
The tough part would be finding out that I’m a tare when I felt like wheat.
🙂 Paulista wrote:The tough part would be finding out that I’m a tare when I felt like wheat.
🙂 I don’t know if it’s possible for something (someone) to feel like something (someone) it’s not (speaking of feeling as an emotion, of course). Either way, that’s not what Jacob 5 is about.
We do a much better job of interacting and helping those we know something about here, Paulista. Might I suggest you give us something to go with in an introduction. I understand if you’re reluctant to reveal too much about yourself, but things like what some of your issues are or what led you here are helpful. Don’t worry, it’s safe.
Paulista wrote:I worry about having to undo x% of what my daughter is taught each Sunday or having ideas placed in her mind that aren’t correct.
There would be a lot of negativity and contention in my house if I approached it this way all the time. I aim for having discussions about what is taught on Sunday and stating what I believe, which is not the same thing as saying that Brother Smith was wrong right off the bat.
DarkJedi wrote:Might I suggest you give us something to go with in an introduction.
I found this site trying to figure out what a NOM was…not even sure what I was reading that referenced NOM but I ended up here. I don’t have much experience with the internet as it relates to members of the Church.
We recently moved to the PNW, found a good ward but a crappy Bishop, ended up at another ward and have since stopped attending for the last 6 months as we didn’t feel it was safe for my daughter.
My biggest issue is that life isn’t completely black or white. Gray doesn’t work for the Church and I am not perfect. Trying to deal with that is a challenge. I have issues when doctrine or rules (real or imagined) become more important than people. I also struggle with the way the Church misrepresents the truth. I have less of an issue with things like the CES letter and bigger issues with dishonesty about the life Joseph Smith lead or the experiences he had. Luckily for me, my issues don’t bother my wife. Her focus is on Jesus Christ and everything else is secondary. She is aware of my frustration and we have family with similar concerns.
Not too much else to say; I was just curious how people reconcile their actions with their beliefs now that they don’t see the world as exclusively white and how they would approach raising a child given their new beliefs.
Thanks for sharing that Paulista. I’m glad you found us. FWIW, most of us here don’t consider ourselves NOM, but if that helped you find us, great! Is your concern for the safety of your daughter a fear for her physical safety? That is alarming, if so.
Having been a black and white thinker for a good portion of my life, I understand where you’re at as far as the gray goes. I have learned to embrace the gray. I’m not sure if that was part of a paradigm shift as described by Givens, or if I just learned some things from the school of hard knocks. Either way, I know I can’t fix the gray, it is the way things are.
My issues are doctrinal, or what is sometimes perceived as doctrine, as well. I don’t like the Pharisaical nature of many people in the church, and rules like “no caffeine” and “one set of earrings.” I have come to realize most things are not doctrine, but are either tradition, sometimes policy, and other times just plain false teachings. I think your wife has it right – the doctrine pretty much only relates to Jesus Christ, and nothing else really matters.
So as far as your daughter goes, teach her what you believe are correct principles as are appropriate for her age. Hopefully you won’t encounter a situation where she tells her Primary teacher “Daddy says Joseph Smith made up the Book of Abraham.”
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