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Thanks for creating this thread. I struggle with this issue too. Is black and white thinking something that can be leapfrogged or is it a natural, unavoidable part of human progression? I’ve told myself, if you
area black and white thinker the church is a fairly safe place to be. In my case church is the absolute last place my kid wants to be. I get the impression that they’ll never step foot in church again the day they leave our home but I could be wrong. DW tells me that she was the same way when she was a kid but later did a 180°. I freely admit that I would have
hated3 hours of church as a child, church just isn’t a place some kids want to be. Of course it really doesn’t help when you see kids that appear very eager to be there… of course now that I think about it I’m not sure which is worse. 
I’m in the awkward position of forcing them to go each week. I often worry that it’s my fault. What does my body language teach them? Which of my complaints did they pick up on? etc. There’s really no defense when my kid complains that church is boring. The best I can do is hope that they eventually find a friend to make church an easier ordeal for them… and it is an ordeal for them.
Oh yeah, I ducked out of EQ about halfway through and sat in on primary. Apparently this month is all about following the prophet, probably a lead up to conference. It was a little discouraging… but I noticed that my kid wasn’t singing “Follow the Prophet” but they’ve never sang in primary.
I don’t have much to add here. We attend, I have very unorthodox beliefs and DW is close behind. My oldest is six. She knows Joseph had more than one wife, that we don’t believe it was from God, that Joseph was a treasure seeker.
We incorporate our beliefs into our teachings with our kids as things come up. But mostly we talk about values, about being kind and good and making good decisions (but again the oldest is six).
Whatever my kids ask me I will be open with them, will also tell them this is how the church sees it, this is how your mom sees it. You will have to come to your own conclusion, and I love you no matter what your conclusion is as that is secondary to you being my child.
That’s about the best I know how to do at this point.
SBRed
Quote:Whatever my kids ask me I will be open with them, will also tell them this is how the church sees it, this is how your mom sees it. You will have to come to your own conclusion, and I love you no matter what your conclusion is as that is secondary to you being my child.
This has been our approach, generally. Our kids are 26-12. They are in charge of their own lives now, and one of my greatest joys is that they come to me and ask questions when they have them – and they know I will love and accept them no matter what they decide to believe and do.
I tried to teach them to think for themselves. I can’t be disappointed or reject them when they do.
SunbeltRed wrote:
Whatever my kids ask me I will be open with them, will also tell them this is how the church sees it, this is how your mom sees it. You will have to come to your own conclusion, and I love you no matter what your conclusion is as that is secondary to you being my child.
I like this too. I have children from 19 to 6. I try and ask open ended questions and let them try and sort it out. There are a few people they have know personally that have had faith transitions. I am one of them. I try to keep it age appropriate and according to what they ask. Though there are times that I do ask questions to see where they are. And ask more questions to challenge their conceptions.One of the best things you can do as a parent is to have regular talks with your kids. Let them ask you whatever. Ask them about their lives. It gives you a natural way to work in questions about sex, faith and anything else that is difficult to navigate.
SunbeltRed wrote:Whatever my kids ask me I will be open with them, will also tell them this is how the church sees it, this is how your mom sees it. You will have to come to your own conclusion, and I love you no matter what your conclusion is as that is secondary to you being my child.
Once we went to a financial seminar put on by the Seventh Day Adventists (free childcare). We were annoyed when we pick up our kids and our oldest daughter is saying that the bible says that the Sabbath is on Saturday. (Could you try not to indoctrinate my kid please?) We explained that the bible does indeed seem to say that from anchient times. We further explained that many people believe that the day was changed to the first day of the week in honor of the resurrection. Our family believes that either way is acceptable and can help you draw closer to God, the important thing is to set a day apart for rest and spiritual pursuits. We go to church on Sunday because that is the tradition of our LDS faith community.
After all that my then 8 yr old daughter said, “Yeah, but they do have a pretty good point about the Sabbath being on Saturday.” We all agreed that the SDA’s had a pretty good point.
Roy wrote:Our family believes that either way is acceptable and can help you draw closer to God, the important thing is to set a day apart for rest and spiritual pursuits. We go to church on Sunday because that is the tradition of our LDS faith community.
Back in the days when I was still learning to keep my mouth shut about some things I broached this subject with my missionary companion. Being fully aware that the Bible does indeed make a good case for Saturday Sabbath, and also being aware that even the church celebrates the Sabbath on Friday/Saturday in Israel and other places where it is customary to hold worship services on those days, it made perfect sense to me that God doesn’t really care which day it is as long as there is a day set aside. I may as well have been the biggest heretic there ever was and if my companion had the power to do so I think he would have excommunicated me on the spot. Other than that day over 30 years ago and right now I have not voiced that opinion. Thanks for the prompt. [End of threadjack]
pualista, You’ve received many great responses, with which I concur. Ray brought up a couple of parables… or well one allegory and one parable… so let me toss out a parable that I also think applies: Quote:He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous and regarded others with contempt: “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee, standing by himself, was praying thus, ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people: thieves, rogues, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give a tenth of all my income.’ But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even look up to heaven, but was beating his breast and saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’ I tell you, this man went down to his home justified rather than the other; for all who exalt themselves will be humbled, but all who humble themselves will be exalted.” -Luke 18:9-14 (NRSV)
I think this is a beautiful story to remember not to worry too much about either ourselves or others in a Church setting. The ‘gospel’ is about us and God. Everyone else is an actor on the stage of our play. I’ve been able to find plenty of spirituality in the Church and so have my children. Whether they believe ultimately is up to them. I simply try to put weight on the parts that matter and I stay away from the parts that don’t. That’s a good way (IMO) to approach spirituality, whether for yourself or in your family. The LDS Church and its doctrine is a worthy vehicle for spirituality. There are problems, but, well… let me know if you find a church that doesn’t have issues. As the parent, you can use the crazy stuff that people sometimes say or do, as a conversation starter.DarkJedi wrote:
Is your concern for the safety of your daughter a fear for her physical safety? That is alarming, if so.
I’m probably on the over-protective side, but the people and the classroom didn’t meet my standard for “appearing” safe.
SunbeltRed wrote:
Whatever my kids ask me I will be open with them, will also tell them this is how the church sees it, this is how your mom sees it. You will have to come to your own conclusion, and I love you no matter what your conclusion is as that is secondary to you being my child.SBRed
I like this idea.
Quote:Admin Note: This excerpt was deleted. The comment it referenced was a blatant one directly opposed to our mission – perhaps the most blatant in the history of this site. Paulista’s response has not been touched.
I can relate to this too. I would never wish a crisis on anyone. I think it is easier to deal with everything if you find the Church later in life. Indoctrination starts pretty early and has consequences, both good and bad.
My wife and I appreciate everyone sharing their thoughts. You all have a lot of great ideas and experiences. Speaking for myself, it makes it easier to step back and evaluate my approach when I can read what others would do or have done.
When you look at Fowler’s stages of faith…I don’t see that Stage 2 or 3 is written as “Bad” stages or “unhealthy” or “dangerous”. Certainly not morally indefensible. Kids are at a different stage than adults. The gospel principles and bible stories and primary teachings are all very helpful in building concepts of right or wrong.
I think there are wonderful teaching moments in the home to keep the ubber orthodox or super zealous literal teachings at church to be buffered in the home, and taught to children properly, as you believe it. Depending on their stage in life and how prepared they are to hear various viewpoints.
It many ways, I think the church is better for children than for adults. The correlated and sanitized messages work well for Primary. I taught primary for many years, and agree with the teachings at the simple level.
I just wish the church had more meat for adults to dig into real things and more accurate teachings. But I never thought those thoughts when I was in primary. But I discuss that with my teenage kids…well after they have started slipping out of stage 3 with serious questions on their faith. But not before.
As parents, it is your role to correct the teachings your children may hear at church that you don’t agree with. But I see it as 90% goodness at church, and 10% my role as a parent to teach what I want my kids to take away from things…even if other parents teach differently.
I’ve always thought for someone struggling with faith…primary is a good place to be. It works on a simple level.
Well, I was logged out by the site and my whole rant was deleted. As an institution the church practices behaviors (dishonesty, racism, sexism) that would not be acceptable in my own life or for people I would trust to work with my daughter. On some level by sending your children to church you are guaranteeing they will be lied to, emotionally abused and manipulated just like you or members of your family were growing up. And, all that will happen because they are normal but not old enough to defend themselves from adults who aren’t teaching the gospel but who are teaching their own interpretation of it with a few out of context scriptures or doctrines of men thrown in for good measure.
Why would you submit a child to that?
Bluntly, being born does that. Life does that. Every religion does that. School does that, at every level. All parents do that, to different degrees and in varying ways. So, we teach our children according to the dictates of our own consciences and hope we are as correct as we can be. That is life. Also, NOTHING you wrote was deleted or edited. It was left untouched. The excerpt from another commenter and that person’s comment was deleted, since it was in direct defiance of our rules and mission.
Seriously, nothing you wrote was touched in any way.
x Paulista – it sounds to me like you have come to a decision. For you and your family raising children in this church isn’t an option. That’s the great thing about life, we get to choose. Not all of my kids stayed in the church but I am glad they began in the church. No place is perfect but I have hope that the good parts of being in the community will stay with them for a long time. Perhaps it’s time for you to write out a list of what you want your children to know and begin creating those teaching moments. Whether they continue in the church or not, your input will always be valuable to them. Good luck.
As my children are for the most part grown, I can only speak from experience. My oldest was in her early teens when my faith crisis began in earnest and I stopped attending church. My wife remained faithful/believing and took the kids to church every Sunday. My daughter is now in her 20s, a graduate student, and semi-active in the church. She is a feminist, but not of the OW persuasion. She also has a job which requires her to work each Sunday, but can and does attend SM if it starts early (9 or 10), but she is not an every Sunday attender. She does not believe all of it. She has more than one set of earrings and a tattoo. She believes the church is wrong about LBGT issues and supports SSM.
I have a son on a mission. He left when I was inactive, I support him because it’s his decision/his life. He did a semester at BYU and came back a firm believer in evolution. Like me, he believes the church can be too Pharisaical and rebels against things like facial hair, wearing white shirts, etc. (Except on his mission, of course.)
I have another son at BYU and preparing for a mission. He is a bit OCD and while he also dislikes some traditions (he doesn’t shave every day, but should – but it’s mostly only enforced at the testing center) he sometimes has trouble distinguishing what to do when what he thinks doesn’t quite match a church teaching. He could easily be a super strict obedience guy, but isn’t.
The youngest, still in high school, is still formulating what he believes (of course to some extent we all are). He seldom wears a white shirt to church – and neither do about half the other young men who bless and pass in our small ward. He recently got his Patriarchal Blessing (I don’t believe in those, BTW) and was surprised and somewhat pleased that it says he should only serve a mission if he believes it’s what he’s supposed to do. (I’m quite shocked at that, too.) The Patriarch (we’ve known him for years and consider him a friend) told him afterwards he just didn’t feel he should say anything else about a mission except that it is his decision. He is considering West Point as a college option.
So there you have it. I know I am biased, but I like my kids and I think they’re pretty good people that I’m glad I know. I also think they are the future of the church and I’m glad that for the overzealous young LDS like my son’s roommate there are guys like my son for balance. These are the people who in 15-20 years will be bishops and RSPs and EQPs – and who will work to turn the ship away from Pharisaical traditions and toward more love and tolerance of the growing diversity in the church as it moves farther and farther away from a Utah-centric institution – and will focus on the gospel of Jesus Christ. Whatever part the church played in their moral beings I am grateful for.
If you truly believe raising kids in the Church will cause irreparable harm and damage them, leave. It might not be easy, but it is that simple. You are an agent unto yourself, and, ultimately, you have to do what you feel is right. If you want to stay, we are here to help you; if not, there isn’t much we can do but wish you blessings in your journey. Just for perspective:
You are talking with some people here who have kids who have flourished and are wonderful people – and we raised them in the LDS Church. You are saying that is impossible, which could be seen as calling us liars. Since we aren’t lying, we could accuse you of lying. I am NOT saying you are lying or calling us liars; I am saying, if we define lying as saying things with which we don’t agree, you would be lying in saying our kids are damaged failures because of their time in the Church. That mindset is a vicious circle that is truly damaging.
That is why I said everybody lies – according to the definition you are using. Your kids will hear things from everyone and everywhere with which they disagree. If they see those things as lies, they will have miserable lives. I believe a big part of our role as parents is to help them learn charity and acceptance of people who see and say things differently than us. We can’t do that if we label all who disagree with us as liars and fools – if we assume everyone around us is damaged uniquely more than we are.
Again, what you do is your choice. I honor agency as the ultimate foundation of human existence. If you choose to leave the Church, go with God – from the Church and from here. If you choose to stay, stay with God and here. Either way, don’t insist you know our children better than we do and respect our right to do the same thing you must do – make our own choices relative to ourselves and our families.
Finally, fwiw, absolutes rarely are. Letting go of a black-and-white, all-or-nothing mentality and embracing everyone as sincere people doing the best they can brings as much peace as anything else I have seen.
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