raising kids

[Anonymous]

So here’s my first question. As a disclaimer, while I have looked over this forum a bit, and have read several posts, I have not extensively searched the archives. So it may be that this question has been beaten to death.

Let me begin with stating how I feel about the church leaders, and “middle man” church idea. This goes along with Gabe’s post just before this one. I have come to agree with John Dehlin’s explanation of why the church doesn’t apologize, talk about, entertain, or opine on any of the hard matters (that is, blacks and priesthood, polygamy, peepstone, theocracy, etc. etc.). I think the reason is that it would simply undermine the authority of the leaders of the church. I do not mean this in a sinister way. I don’t think they knowingly are trying to deceive us. They act according to what is in the best interests of the church as a whole, usually overlooking the individual. This is understandable as it is a large world-wide organization. If they undermine the teachings of BY, JSF, JS, or any other prophet, they are basically undermining their own claims. This is sad because it is the very thing that is so desperately needed in the church.

I think this is very problematic when kids are thrown into the mix. Because the church does anything to avoid undermining their authority, I believe it warps our perceptions of how authority should be. Just looking at this last general conference one can see the numerous (almost every talk) times in which the speaker reaffirms the prophet, the new member of the twelve, etc. Our kids grow up thinking that these guys are infallible.

So here comes my question. My wife thinks that overall the church helps people be good and hence wants to raise our kids in the church. I oppose this for the following reasons:

1. “Deprogramming” our kids after each sunday at church sends confusing messages to the kids and undermines the authority of other well-respected adults.

2. #1 will eventually have to be resolved. Either the children will have many LDS friends, do all they are asked to do and hence eventually dismiss the parents, or they will dismiss the friends and social structure (the latter is unlikely I think).

3. They could have an unhealthy view of authority (I did).

4. They will most likely have a warped view of sexual relations if they never experiment, masturbate, or otherwise explore in this area (I didn’t). Since they are counseled by our leaders to avoid exploration in this area, this seems likely.

5. I think it extremely unlikely that as two parents we can push back against the social machine of Mormonism. It is a very strong social force and I feel my wife underestimates it. Everything in the church is set up to keep us in the church and on the straight and narrow. The social networks, the temple, the tithing, eternal families, etc. all play a vital role for anyone who ever considers leaving the church. See cult mind-control mechanisms for examples.

6. kids grow up believing they have to marry in the temple to be happy. Hence they date only LDS kids and hence their marriage is built on the church rather than on unconditional love (this is what my marriage was until I became disaffected. As many here can probably attest to, it nearly destroyed my marriage. My wife and I had to reinvent our marriage in order to stay together).

7. Girls grow up believing it is their calling in life to get married and have kids, regardless of how immensely talented they may be and would otherwise contribute to humanity.

8. what if one of my kids is gay? Need I say more?

9. They could have a warped, narrow-minded view of homosexuality, creationism, the “arm of flesh,” natural desires, their body, etc. This of course will depend on the child, parents, leaders, etc.

10. If Utah is any indication (and I grew up there), they will be staunch conservative Republicans. I see this as a downside (although I’m no democrat either), feel free to disagree.

11. They will continually be subjected to talks which paint a picture of black vs. white (not race), church is true vs. not true, world outside of church is bad inside is good, Lord’s side vs. Devil’s side, etc.

12. Worst of all, the constant barrage of obedience and faith, in my view, leads to people who generally can’t think for themselves and always have allegiance to the leaders. Hence they generally avoid anything contrary to the teachings of the church, any “real” church history as it is seen as heretical, or anything that is “outside” the church (after all it is the Devil’s side). Maybe I’m being a bit dramatic here, but after doing quite a bit of study on cult control mechanisms, there are many of those mechanisms that exist in our church (for better or for worse). Those mechanisms create a culture. And without a VERY strong counter-culture, our kids might not learn to learn and evaluate things for themselves. That is, they are constantly trying to fit what they learn into their Mormon world-view.

13. They end up thinking that one sip of alcohol, coffee, or tea makes you a sinner.

14. They may be judgmental and/or self-righteous (see Provo, UT for example)(I was, in fact I only learned real compassion after going through this disaffection).

I complain about most of these things because of my own experience. My parents never pushed me in the church. But they also never pushed back against the nonsense in the church. Hence (coupled with my personality) I had most of these “problems.” Let me say that I do appreciate many things. I never drank, got a girl pregnant, did drugs, or any of the other horrible things youth get involved in. I also have learned to be obedient, and sacrifice things. However, I submit that there are other, healthier social groups for helping to teach these things.

So what does anyone think? Does the good of raising your kids in the church outweigh the bad? Or is there a significant downside? I would especially appreciate hearing from people who have tried to “push-back” against the social structure and debunk the “nonsense” that kids pick up. Is this healthy?

BTW: my kids are 4, 2, and 6 mos. so I have time to take action now.

[Anonymous]

Hi jmb275, and welcome!

You questions are certainly valid. Excuse my lack of time at the moment and short answer, but I wonder if the idea of “deprogramming” can be taken in the perspective of Fowler’s Stages of Faith. According to Fowler all the stages are a healthy and normal part of development. Yes, maybe we can temper a couple things along the way to ‘ease’ the transitions from one stage to another. From my perspective however, it is good and right for children to be immersed in and fully experience the various stages as they grow and mature.

I assume most people have listened to the podcast in the library section or on Mormonstories.org, for anyone who hasn’t I highly recommend a listen – and the reading Fowler’s book if so inclined. For me this work of Fowler is an essential framework for navigating disaffection and staying LDS.

[Anonymous]

Wow, lots to discuss! Here are a few thoughts about your key issues:

1 – the need to deprogram your kids. Honestly, you have to do this as a parent anyway. They hear all kinds of things from church, school, TV, friends, etc. I’ve actually been more alarmed by some of the things the kids got from their school friends and those friends’ parents than they have gotten at church (political, judgmental and even racist). Also, I agree with Orson that some nuance just comes with age. Kids go through phases: young kids have an unhealthy respect for authority (but my teacher said . . .), teens have a healthy and at times overboard disrespect for authority (they just don’t understand!), and adults eventually develop a more nuanced understanding of authority. Your kids will progress at the same pace as the rest of humanity.

As for adults who still have an unquestioning view of authority – you aren’t like that. Your kids have your genetics and are a product of your home environment. As adults, they tend to return to that. The key is to have a good relationship with the kids, so your home is one in which people can freely discuss their views. Some families opt for a church-centric relationship rather than really relating to one another, which probably drives a lot of the bad stuff you describe. That’s not a relationship, IMO. That is superficial (at best) and cult-like (at worst).

As for the sexual views, I will respectfully disagree with you a little bit. Experimentation has many negative side-effects, especially on teens and young adults who are not ready for the emotional aspects associated with sexuality. But having a healthy attitude about sex within your own marriage is something that when your kids are old enough to be ready can help them. I simply disagree that exploration and experimentation naturally lead to healthy adult sexual behaviors. Repression and shame are obviously not healthy either, but they are not the alternative.

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5. I think it extremely unlikely that as two parents we can push back against the social machine of Mormonism. It is a very strong social force and I feel my wife underestimates it.

Every lasting human organization is built for self-preservation. But you can participate on your own terms. Many inter-faith families do.

Quote:

6. kids grow up believing they have to marry in the temple to be happy. Hence they date only LDS kids and hence their marriage is built on the church rather than on unconditional love (this is what my marriage was until I became disaffected. As many here can probably attest to, it nearly destroyed my marriage. My wife and I had to reinvent our marriage in order to stay together).

This is unfortunately true in many cases, but it doesn’t have to be. It needs to be avoided. It’s simply not true that you can marry just anyone so long as you have the church in common and it will all be okay. When change is introduced into any relationship, that relationship has to be flexible enough to be redefined. I agree, but again, you can raise kids who are authentic and know how to connect to other human beings on grounds other than a superficial commonality of religion.

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7. Girls grow up believing it is their calling in life to get married and have kids, regardless of how immensely talented they may be and would otherwise contribute to humanity.

If you make it clear that you support your daughters in whatever they choose to do, they will do what they choose to do regardless of those messages. BTW, chick flicks often also give these messages, and they have a more stirring soundtrack. As social norms change, so do these norms, even within the church. As a working woman, it is probably true that some LDS men would not have wanted to marry me, but guess what? I wouldn’t have wanted to marry them either – it would have been a bad match. I married someone who loved & respected me for who I am, not some vacant role that any old person could fill.

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8. what if one of my kids is gay? Need I say more?

You love them if that is the case. And you do your best to help them be happy, just like any of your children.

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10. If Utah is any indication (and I grew up there), they will be staunch conservative Republicans. I see this as a downside (although I’m no democrat either), feel free to disagree.

This is certainly more of an issue in Utah where Mormons predominate. My home ward was very Democrat.

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13. They end up thinking that one sip of alcohol, coffee, or tea makes you a sinner. 14. They may be judgmental and/or self-righteous (see Provo, UT for example)(I was, in fact I only learned real compassion after going through this disaffection).

But when they see that you are not judgmental and that you are compassionate, they will learn by your example. Once they grow out of that childish black & white phase.

And I would probably not live in Utah County given your concerns, but that’s just me.

[Anonymous]

I don’t have time to address every point right now, but . . .

Fwiw, a big part of my peace with regard to this issue is that I have come to accept that “deprogramming” is an essential aspect of life in general. It’s unavoidable to those who are striving to gain personal understanding of anything and take responsibility for the education of their children. I call it “debriefing” – and I use it constantly after ALL meetings of any kind.

In essence, my kids know I’m going to ask about what they learned in church, school, and everywhere else. I’m going to discuss those things with them, and I’m going to share my opinions about them. I’m going to do so without “criticism” of the people involved, but it’s going to be designed to help them think through things on their own.

For example, one of my Primary-age daughters came home from church a few weeks ago (after a conversation with another child in the ward) and asked me, “We don’t believe in evolution, do we?” I found out why she was asking the question, partly to address it with our Bishop if it was said in Primary and partly because I believe that should be ascertained first, then I shared with her my own view – tailored for a 10-year-old. (Essentially, “Yes, I believe in it, but only as an explanation for how God created our physical body. I don’t believe we are nothing more than smart apes, since I believe we are spirit children of God, but we really don’t know – so individual members have lots of different opinions about it.”)

That happens all the time in our house, and it’s not seen by anyone as a negative – since I don’t treat it as a negative. It’s just part of life and critical thinking.

[Anonymous]

@hawkgrrl

I appreciate the comments. I think you bring up good points and you largely are recapitulating what my wife thinks. In other words, I hear a lot of “I agree but it doesn’t have to be that way.”

Why do I would I want to push against the system when there are healthier ones? I mean, if there are alternatives that can teach the same set of positive values without the negative ones, why should I stay in Mormonism and continue to “kick against the pricks” as it were? If Mormonism is a social structure that has some of the negatives I present then why subject my kids to them while I actively try to push back against it? I mean I go to church every Sunday, and otherwise participate and support the organization, but then when I get home I tell my kids that the BoM actually is probably not a historical record, but don’t say anything because most people think it is. Not only does this send mixed messages to my kids but it encourages elitism, and teaches them to keep things secret from their peers. I don’t see how this is healthy?

You also mentioned:

hawkgrrrl wrote:

As for adults who still have an unquestioning view of authority – you aren’t like that. Your kids have your genetics and are a product of your home environment. As adults, they tend to return to that.

This is something that scares me the most. You see I am unquestioning of authority by nature. I was until I was 28 years old (currently) and became disaffected. This leads me to believe my kids will be like me and experience things in the same way I did.

hawkgrrrl wrote:

You love them if that is the case. And you do your best to help them be happy, just like any of your children.

You mentioned this in response to one of them being homosexual. Surely you can see that if I support an organization that treats their inclinations as sin, abhorrent, and a “trial” or “struggle” that it is counterproductive to their well-being. Why even risk subjecting my kids to such feelings?

Oh and I wasn’t suggesting sexual experimentation, I was implying what you mentioned, that repression is not healthy either (although I clearly worded it poorly).

I hope I’m not coming across as just arguing. I really do appreciate your thoughts. I feel that positive growth and learning comes from discussing such things with people who may not agree with me. So while I may not agree with everything you write, your thoughts are still valuable to the process.

@Orson

Yes, I hadn’t actually thought of this process in the context of Stages of Faith. I will have to think more on this. Thank you for the thoughts!

@Old-Timer

Thank you for the example. You are right, we should “deprogram” after everything our kids do. That is responsible parenting. So I guess I’m curious. Wouldn’t it make more sense to pick a social group/structure to raise kids in which more closely coincides with my beliefs as the parent? If I don’t believe the BoM to be historical, or Joseph Smith to have actually seen God/Christ, why send my kids to an institution that does believe this? It seems very counterintuitive to me.

[Anonymous]

Quote:

Why do I would I want to push against the system when there are healthier ones?

That’s a fair question. I will only say that I haven’t found one that is healthier for kids, just a different set of trade-offs. There is something about the lay clergy aspect that actually creates some very exciting growth and self-reliance opportunities for kids IMO. A very good non-Mo lesbian friend of mine actually said that if she had “gone a different route” (her words) she would have wanted to raise her kids in the LDS church because it seems to produce the most self-reliant, healthy kids and the strongest families. So that’s her opinion based on her observations.

[Anonymous]

JMB – welcome to the forum. My view on this (as one who has no children) is that if I have children, they’ll probably be raised in the church. However, they’ll also be raised with the idea that most people have no interest in being smart or thinking things through and they’ll be told that they’re going to be different. Church is going to be the same way. Where thinking and church collide, and they sometimes will, I’ll counsel my children to defer to thinking every single time. There’ll be costs to this, but there are costs to doing it any other way as well.

It seems like you’ve got more than a little problem with the Church socialization experience. So my advice more than anything is to raise them in the Church, but not of the Church. Don’t let them get on the church assembly line. If you’re really concerned about it, I’d take them to sacrament meeting and consider skipping primary. In my experience, it’s the other meetings where the ridiculous ideas and slavish obedience start. If you do send them to primary, it would be with the same instruction that I’d give them going to school: there are lots of people who don’t try hard to be smart and you won’t be one of them.

[Anonymous]

Just a few more thoughts from my personal perspective. With the idea of letting kids grow up with the mythological stories of our faith tradition I don’t feel any need to bring up historicity discussions when they are at a young age (pre-teen). I will refer to some topics as I typically do, the way am comfortable with (I see the BoM as scripture just like the bible, that doesn’t make it infallible – and I don’t think history gives us the tools to determine it’s historicity. It could be myth and still have the same value that it intrinsically has, in other words the historical questions really don’t interest me – either way I think it was recorded by humans who expressed their personal spiritual views which can at times be quite valuable.) But I think I will naturally shelter children from these more “adultish” views until they mature to a point where their personal curiosity takes them there anyway.

Don’t get me wrong the issue of blindly following authority will be addressed in appropriate ways through their entire lives. There should be a healthy balance in all things.

I’ll give another plug for the Stages of Faith podcast series because I recently listened to it again (for at least the 3rd time) and took more nuggets from it again. From my perspective the further you travel down this path the more you catch little things from Fowler that you hadn’t noticed, or that didn’t hit you in the same way the last time through. When I say “this path” I guess I’m referring to personal spiritual growth, even after the meaning of ‘spirituality’ has changed through the event of disillusionment to something much more mythological and less metaphysical. Even still I think there is much we don’t know, and much room for exploration outside of the physically testable realm. In some ways I can’t believe I’m saying that, I love the hard sciences, but there is something newly fascinating to me about the way imagination (a positive and expansive term) impacts the human spirit.

[Anonymous]

@Orson

Thank you. Those are good thoughts. I must say, I am more interested in sheltering them from the social institutionalization than I am the history. The history is easy to clear up, but the social aspects are much more difficult. I have been listening to the “Power of Myth” interview series with Joseph Campbell. It has kept me from the nihilistic precipice I almost fell off. I now have much more appreciation for the Bible, BoM, and other metaphorical teachings without giving way to the dissonance caused by trying to shoehorn them into a historical, literal context. I think generally, this is healthy. I’m with you all the way on exploring things outside the physically testable realm. I work at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory so I’m a big science, engineering guy too, but I reject the notion that there is no room for metaphysics. Spirituality is an important aspect of our lives. I want to instill this in my children. I just don’t want them to experience the institutionalization that I have gone through and subsequently had to have surgically removed.

I have listened to the “Stages of Faith” podcasts and I loved them. I’m trying to get to the book (although there’s about 50 in my queue right now). However, you’re right, if one takes the view that the “Stages of faith” are what we all go through, then leaving the church doesn’t help that, it just changes the domain. But then again, his study seeks to characterize people in the typical religious faiths. It could be that all these faiths tend to promote these set of stages. That is to say, if I were to raise my kids outside the church, could I help lead them through the “stages” and simply bypass stages 3 and 4, or at least shorten the time for them? Maybe that’s a discussion for another thread.

@Gabe P

Actually Gabe, I think that’s a pretty good idea. I hadn’t thought about just going to the parts of church I actually can stomach. I usually can stomach sacrament meetings (I’m busy with the kids anyway). Except I’m not a big fan of testimony meeting. All the “I know this” and “I know that” is a bit over the top for my tastes. If I got up in testimony meeting I’d say something like “I know the church is a church.”

@hawkgrrrl

I’m sure you’re right, there probably is a trade-off with each social institution. I am a fan of self-reliance and I think this one of the upshots of Mormonism.

[Anonymous]

I love Joseph Campbell’s Power of Myth!

In sacrament meeting I would say something like “I love the gospel” but that is because I believe the gospel is defined by what is actually true. If it’s not true it’s false doctrine. The book “Mormon Scientist” about Pres. Eyring’s father helped me with this idea, he had a saying: “if it’s true it’s part of the gospel” that his father told him as he went away to school. It was intended to ease any fears about secular learning which I also really enjoyed. The book brings out how Henry Sr. wasn’t afraid to state things as he saw them, he wasn’t shy about saying the world was very old when the young earth creationist view was gaining popularity in some corners of the church.

[Anonymous]

Fwiw, actual or only ideal, I LOVE the Mormon view of eternity – the Buddhist-like focus on striving for perfection (completeness, wholeness, full development) toward integration into a cosmic whole (familial / communal sealing). That simply isn’t found in ANY other Christian tradition – period. I want my kids to grasp that concept, even if I have to massage the version that gets taught too much in church.

I do that a lot – take a concept that I believe is wonderful at its core but distorted to apply to Stage 3 masses and “tweak” it to teach my kids how I view it. I am fine with them hearing the “general adaptation” for all at church and the “individual adaptation” from me at home. It gives them a way to navigate real life – where they simply MUST learn to accept and work within organizational generalities while not succumbing to those generalities in their own personal lives.

Frankly, too many members (and too many people everywhere) fail to grasp that inherent paradox – so they end up choosing only one and fighting the other.

Summary: I want my kids to get the “overview” the Church teaches and the details I teach – so they can learn to sort out their own personal view as they grow and leave home. If they don’t learn that process now, they can fall very easily into a state of being “tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine”. Until they learn to create and “own” their perspective, they are acted upon; once they see me figuring out my own paradigm, they have a chance to be “agents unto themselves”.

[Anonymous]

@Old-Timer

I love it!! Very insightful, I had not thought about it in this light. Yes, Mormonism does teach some amazing concepts that are similar to ideas in Eastern religions. I do want to emphasize those things. In other words, it sounds to me like you’re advocating Mormonism as a tool. That is, you want them to learn the important concepts to help them to navigate through life. But you don’t necessarily see Mormonism as the end, only the means to something higher, or better. Am I interpreting properly, or am I putting words in your mouth? If I’m interpreting properly, I could really get along with this view and even embrace it I think (if I can stomach Elder’s quorum lessons).

@Orson

Yeah, I read Mormon Scientist before I started RSR, and Power of Myth. I really liked it. It helped me realize there is room in the church for people with dissenting views (however much my family may think I’m a heretic). However, I did find it almost comical the way that the biographer carefully navigated the issues. He wanted to be bold and show Henry as a bold, scientific mouthpiece, disagreeing with the leadership, but then he would quickly recoil and claim that Henry was still supportive, fully believing, as if to reassure us that he wasn’t a heretic. Maybe that’s really the way he was, but it would sure be difficult for me to keep up those kinds of charades. I mean I went into my bishop and told him I didn’t agree at all with the church’s stance on Prop 8, and my bishop became very squirmish, encouraging me to pray and read my scriptures. I can’t imagine what it must be like to disagree with someone like Joseph Fielding Smith on a seeming fundamental doctrine such as the creation. Funny though how you can still get “Man his Origins and Destiny” but you sure can’t find “Faith of a Scientist.”

[Anonymous]

Quote:

I have been listening to the “Power of Myth” interview series with Joseph Campbell. It has kept me from the nihilistic precipice I almost fell off. I now have much more appreciation for the Bible, BoM, and other metaphorical teachings without giving way to the dissonance caused by trying to shoehorn them into a historical, literal context. I think generally, this is healthy.

jmb275 – I love the Power of Myth, too!

Quote:

In other words, it sounds to me like you’re advocating Mormonism as a tool. That is, you want them to learn the important concepts to help them to navigate through life. But you don’t necessarily see Mormonism as the end, only the means to something higher, or better.

Whether that’s Ray’s view or not – it’s mine! I like how you’ve stated this.

[Anonymous]

My how we are active today!

@jmb (my first time using that little @ thingie for that. Cool!)

First and foremost, I feel your pain, and I totally agree with the emotion and earnest spirit of your post (with the exception of item 4, as Hawk pointed out, with your mitigating explanation of course). And I totally endorse actually reading the Stages of Faith book, which I finally did this month five years after my “second conversion”. Here’s my proposal for them and for you: exposure (to the good in the foreign).

[Anonymous]

I have to agree with Tom. I always loved the idea of visiting other churches and learning of other cultures. I find that what I agree with I accept into my own life and what I don’t agree with I just don’t practice. I think that exploring other religions and organizations may help. I’ve visited quite a few but haven’t found anything that fit me more than the LDS church. I have friends and family members who have found other religions that they enjoy better. It may be that I just grew up in an awesome ward because I actually had my parents and a lot of adults in my ward encourage me to think differently about church views. I was always encouraged to get a college degree and continue my education. I even had one of the bishopric tell me that he expected me to achieve a lot educationally and motherly. I had many non-LDS friends even though I grew up in a mainly LDS community. I was bothered by the idea that “We are the only true church” and that my friends wouldn’t achieve the greatest glory just because they weren’t LDS. My family told me that God knew who was good and he wouldn’t condemn anyone to anything just because of their religion. Their examples helped me to be more open to the world and accept others regardless of their beliefs.

[Author]

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