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We have some older teenage children now, and I don’t really feel like I have had to do a lot of intense “deprogramming.” Our children are much more likely to listen to my views or my wife’s than get all wrapped up in what someone said at Church. We talk about a lot of subjects pretty openly in our household. I have had some really great discussions with my older kids. They know that what people say at Church is just someone’s opinion, even if they are a teacher or Church leader. Just because they are an adult doesn’t mean they are automatically correct. The older kids get it. They know. I’ve seen this topic come up a lot in the DAMU, but I just don’t see how involved parents that are no longer absolutist/literal believers are going to have “brainwashed” children. I confess that my kids seem much more conservative than my wife or I am, but that is the nature of teen rebellion, lol. They want to do the opposite. My oldest daughter (15) goes on and on about how she isn’t going to have kids at all, and she is going to get a good education. She means it too.
Our younger children want to live the story. They want answers and stability. It isn’t appropriate to get into some lofty discussion about philsophy and metaphysics with a 6 year old. He just wants to know the answer, and likes the idea of Jesus and Heavenly Father. He can relate to that. It makes sense to the little guy.
@Valoel Brilliant!! Thank you very much for sharing. My dad just called me tonight and proceeded to (somewhat attackingly) question how I was going to raise my kids if I no longer believed in the “one trueness” of the church. It was a rough 2 hours. I tried to tell him that I knew that people were doing it successfully, but he seemed to think they would be severely damaged by the mixed messages. I’m glad you have dispelled the myth for me!
Can you imagine the devastating toll on members that outing the church would take if the leaders started to reveal the history/mystery behind the church doctrine and how it all came about? Can you say, complete devastation, uprising against the church, people who become lost, depressed, mass suicide, murder, embarassment and shame in the face of the nation, persecutions against the people, denial, anger, fear. I think the church gives people hope to go on in this life; even though it no longer does this for me. jmb275 wrote:I tried to tell him that I knew that people were doing it successfully, but he seemed to think they would be severely damaged by the mixed messages. I’m glad you have dispelled the myth for me!
Well … your father is correct in a sense. My children aren’t growing up like the children who’s parents are literal believers in the mythology of Mormonism, and who will demand orthodoxy from them. So from some other people’s perspective, that may be “damaged.” I don’t think so. My children are waaaaaaaaaaaay more conservative and well-behaved than I was as a teenager (or an adult). But then again, they have permission to make a lot of their own decisions. And they have permission to question things and think critically. People generally want to make good decisions when given the freedom to do so. I have faith in people (my children). My kids will make mistakes, but I want them to know that I will always be there for them. I don’t freak out on them at every little thing.
This is a good thread. I am also struggling with this question. What do I teach my kids now?
I’m pretty sure I don’t believe in the current temple work, yet my kids believe the temple is the only place to get married.
I’m not so sure I want my kids to go on missions. I’d rather them go on a service mission.
I want to teach them things but I’m scared they will say something at church that will upset someone. Yup, I still fear man.
They have been indoctrinated to believe in the temple and missions and works. I’m really at a loss on what to do.
Tom advised me in my personal introduction to go slowly, think slowly as I morph through my journey. Good advice. In that line of thinking, I have lived happy in the church for over 35 years, and there is no need for me now to frantically run tell my kids or my family all things are different now and they need to know all complexities and paradoxes. If I was ok on my journey to find out things in due course of time, my kids will be also.
If I believe the Stages of Faith Development hold true, then my teenage kids are at a stage where it works best for them to be in Stage 2 and moving to stage 3. I don’t need to push them to 4 or 5, they need to develop when they are ready, if at all. That is up to them.
My daughter and I just had a long talk on our date night about the FSOY standard of not dating until 16. Standards night fireside last Sunday got her thinking and asking me questions. They taught in the fireside only a few of God’s children will get to go to the Celestial kingdom, so they need to raise their standards and live to prepare to marry in the temple and have higher standards than their friends. Dating at 16 is one of those rules.
The fireside was well intentioned, but missed some points and had shaky doctrine, and I was proud my daughter (14 yrs old) was smart enough to pick up some of that and ask questions that didn’t seem right. It gave us a chance to talk about it and me share my opinions and her to realize she needs to find answers, not take YW leaders at every word taught at church. On the other hand, we discussed that not dating until 16 is still a good standard to not rush into relationships, make waiting to date as fun as waiting to go to dances at 14 was for her, and on and on.
The bottom line was, we were able to talk and help her see many of the good from church that will benefit her. The things that don’t sound right should be questioned and we’ll establish our standards for drinking soda, dating, keeping the sabbath holy, and other interpretations as a family. I don’t want her to be rebellious and throw out all the good the church teaches, but I want her to learn to develop a testimony by searching things, not by blind obedience. But I won’t teach her all the things I’ve been reading lately, she’ll have to find that on her own one day when she is ready.
My young boys of 6 and 10 will just continue to be taught the normal primary lessons. Like believing in Santa Claus, there is value in letting them have hope and peace to understand things at their level. As they grow and develop, their faith will need to grow centered on Christ, the true meaning of religion just like Christ, love and service is the true meaning of Christmas, not the symbolism of St. Nick. I hope they get married in the temple, I hope they serve missions, and I hope they find good companions to build their happy families. I hope they find peace in developing their faith throughout their lives and I hope my journey will help them if they get troubled one day on things they can’t explain in the church.
just me wrote:I want to teach them things but I’m scared they will say something at church that will upset someone. Yup, I still fear man.
They have been indoctrinated to believe in the temple and missions and works. I’m really at a loss on what to do.
Just Me, from my experience, what helps best is a good relationships with the kids that we can allow open and responsible parent-child talk. Ask them what they believe. Respect their belief.
My daughter (14) speaks up in YW all the time, saying, “My dad says you can still be happy if you marry someone outside the church. We have part-member families in our ward, they’re happy. Temple marriages don’t guarantee happiness” or “My dad says it is more important to teach people about Christ, from all books not just to talk about the Book of Mormon” and stuff like that (not in a confrontational way, just class participation) – so far, the feedback from the bishop to me is that the YW leaders needed to be reminded to teach correct principles, and they have grown to respect my daughter for her thoughts instead of the drones that just sit and aren’t even paying attention. I guess if the things the kids say in church are based on truth, it should stand on its own, and truth can set you free of your fears. If it is really controversial or questionable truth, it is probably better not said in public but only talked about at home. Something the kids also need to learn.
Heber13, your daughter sounds like an awesome kid. I agree about going slow. The thing about the faith stages is that you can be in each of those levels in all different religions (belief systems). So, I am trying to decide what beliefs to introduce that are different from the LDS party line. I dunno, I’m just confused.
It is funny that in talking about certain subjects with my husband I’ve discovered that we both grew up not understanding some of the doctrines of the church. Like certain things never quit clicked (ie. nature of the godhead) but neither of us ever said anything and just accepted the doctrine at face value. Both of us TBM’s from a very young age.
I don’t really want my kids to grow up like that.
Heber13 wrote:The bottom line was, we were able to talk and help her see many of the good from church that will benefit her. The things that don’t sound right should be questioned and we’ll establish our standards for drinking soda, dating, keeping the sabbath holy, and other interpretations as a family. I don’t want her to be rebellious and throw out all the good the church teaches, but I want her to learn to develop a testimony by searching things, not by blind obedience.
I really like this. I think this is very much the approach that I am taking with my two eldest kids (12 and 13). I am constantly pointing out how helpful following the youth standards can be to them as they navigate their way through high school. However, I also encourage them to really think about what they are taught, and to not be afraid to question anything a leader says or teaches. It has opened up a wonderful dialogue in our family, and I feel closer to them for it.
Heber13 wrote:My young boys of 6 and 10 will just continue to be taught the normal primary lessons. Like believing in Santa Claus, there is value in letting them have hope and peace to understand things at their level.
Thank you so much for this… it has made me feel much more comfortable about what my younger children are learning at church. My two youngest especially still really love Primary, but sometimes I wonder about what they are being taught there, especially regarding the early church, first vision etc. However, what you say makes sense, and I feel a lot more at peace about it now.
@Heber13 Very good thoughts, it sounds like you’re doing an awesome job teaching your kids. I admire your example and hope to create a similar environment in my home as my children get older.
One comment/question I wanted to bring up. The Stages of Faith are not a prescribed recipe for growing in faith. They are an observation of a regular pattern that develops in people who belong to many/most literalistic religions. That is to say, if we teach our kids the method for being in stages 4 and 5, that is, questioning, being humble, being comfortable with paradox, etc. I think we can drastically minimize the need for such a journey. I can’t speak for everyone here but the reason I am in stage 4 and classify myself as such is because I am 28 years old and just now figuring all this out and going through an emotional roller coaster. As Fowler says, most religions tend to keep people at stage 3. But if we teach our kids to look past religion, to spirituality, I don’t see why we can’t create stage 5 adults out of children without the pain. There always has to be a questioning of the way we were raised. But if kids have an environment where they feel safe questioning, and if we have raised them such that they aren’t convinced they are absolutely right and everyone else wrong, they will turn into adults who can do the same without the emotional shock value.
I bring this up just because of the comment about forcing our kids through the stages. I think this tends to oversimplify the situation. You don’t need to go run and tell them like you said, but you can foster an environment where the pain of stage 4 is less dramatic thanks to the nuanced understanding you give them now. But it sounds like maybe you are already doing this. Keep up the good comments Heber13!
I want to add to what jmb275 just said, since he described my own upbringing really well. I wrote the following on Mormon Matters a while ago: http://mormonmatters.org/2008/06/22/the-bright-night-of-my-soul/ I believe strongly in making sure my kids understand that I am open to all kinds of options for how to interpret things, and that I don’t accept everything others say without question. I got that from my dad, and I will praise him forever for it.
Thanks for all the kind words about my daughter. I try not to brag, but I am a very proud father…I’m beginning to think someone knew I would need extra good spirits in my home to help me when I struggle, the kids just came that way and I’m grateful for that beyond anything else in this world. One interesting note, like many of the other paradoxes my eyes are becoming opened to, by raising my kids with open communication and encouraging them to question things, that also means they do the same at home with me. They don’t just obey dad cause he said to do something, they question me at times. There is a fine line between open-mindedness and rebelliousness. It makes it a little harder because we have to talk and explain reasons for things, instead of them just obeying me and it can be less efficient. So there is a trade-off between strict obedience and free thinking, both at home for my kids, and for the church and its members.
Overall, I hope the kids are better for it in the long run. I’m sure they’ll get older and blame me for their problems anyway.
Quote:I’m sure they’ll get older and blame me for their problems anyway.
We do it to God and our own mortal “leaders”; why wouldn’t our kids do it to us?Just a quick question .. might have to do with kids. SS lesson was on keeping the Sabbath Holy.
As we were discussing activities “TO do” on Sunday instead of focusing on what “NOT to do” .. A woman mentioned “PH holders should interview their children” on Sundays and that it was very important- and everyone agreed. What does that mean? Only fathers should do a review with their children once a week, on Sunday, b/c they have the PH .. ? What about mothers? I have no idea what this comment was about. If anyone knows , Please tell me!
I talk with my kids all the time (individually and collectively) and have never “interviewed” any of them formally. This is something that some leader thought was a good idea (and it isn’t a bad idea in and of itself – as a concept), and it became a cultural tradition in some areas and families. It probably was a suggestion to fathers who weren’t spending much time with their kids and not talking with them very often or very deeply. I think as many parents botch it when done formally as do it well, so my suggestion simply is to talk with your kids. The format is less important, by far, than what is said and how it’s said.
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