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The Prophet Dilemma Continued: After John Taylor the third Prophet of the Church in this dispensation (who lead the Church as President of the Quorum of the Twelve for three years before being sustained as President of the Church August 29, 1877-October 1880). Curious?
This quote pretty much diminishes the role of any prophet after Joseph Smith:
After the martyrdom of Joseph Smith at Carthage on June 27, 1844 – John Taylor wrote:
3 Joseph Smith, the Prophet and Seer of the Lord,
has done more, save Jesus only, for the salvation of men in this world, than any other man that ever lived in it. In the short space of twenty years, he has brought forth the Book of Mormon, which he translated by the gift and power of God, and has been the means of publishing it on two continents; has sent the fulness of the everlasting gospel, which it contained, to the four quarters of the earth; has brought forth the revelations and commandments which compose this book of Doctrine and Covenants, and many other wise documents and instructions for the benefit of the children of men; gathered many thousands of the Latter-day Saints, founded a great city, and left a fame and name that cannot be slain. He lived great, and he died great in the eyes of God and his people; and like most of the Lord’s anointed in ancient times, has sealed his mission and his works with his own blood; and so has his brother Hyrum. In life they were not divided, and in death they were not separated!” (D&C 135:3) (I interpret the underlined words to also include and every other man that should come after him.)
How do you as a prophet follow that? Prophets at the heads of dispensations see angels, converse with God and Jesus; and have many trials they go through and face martyrdom. They bring forth canonized scriptures. [Conference talks to my knowledge don’t get canonized.] Published works by apostles and prophets are not considered binding on the membership of the church for example, such writings state: “This is not an official Church publication. Hence, even though I was helped in its preparation, I alone am responsible for the views it expresses.” As a teenager I was always baffled by such things when I read writings of the apostles and prophets. Boy was it confusing after hearing that they are prophet, seers, and revelators.
So finally I have consigned myself that they are the Lord’s Anointed and 90% or more of the time reveal what HF wants us to hear. They are Preachers of Righteousness, Hold the Keys of the Kingdom for the ordinances, and to direct the church. Nevertheless, compared to Joseph Smith, Brigham Young and Wilford Woodruff, they are more like Stewards of the office of prophet. I make this assessment based upon the fact that most doctrinal additions or changes that have huge implications were put in place through Wilford Woodruff (Polygamy Official Declaration-1 given by Wilford Woodruff). The one exception to this rule is when Spencer W. Kimball issued Official Declaration-1 changing the Priesthood Policy in 1978 to include all worthy males. Nevertheless, that was not a doctrinal change, but a policy change-since Joseph Smith gave the Priesthood to some black members. You might even call Declaration-1 a policy change since the doctrine is still taught in the Doctrine and Covenants, it just may not be practiced (Joseph F. Smith Demanded that the US government allow section on plural marriage to be left to stay in the D&C). Joseph F. Smith may also be an exception since Section 138 is part of the D&C and was received by him on October 3, 1918, and it was accepted as scripture on October 31, 1918. The Church rarely accepts new “published scripture” that is actually added to the D&C.
jamison wrote:Joseph Smith, the Prophet and Seer of the Lord,
has done more, save Jesus only, for the salvation of men in this world, than any other man that ever lived in it… [snip] I try to keep in mind the context of that statement. It was a eulogy written by John Taylor, published in the local newspaper, for Joseph Smith. When we write eulogies or speak them at a funeral service, we tend to exaggerate the good qualities and accomplishments of people and try to forget their mistakes and failures. I don’t have a problem with that either. I think we would all like to be remembered for our better moments than our low points.’
It isn’t really written in a style that should be taken literally — it is kind and loving hyperbole.
I take an even more polarizing approach to prophet figures: I think they teach us a great deal when they are both right AND when they are wrong. When they tell us something and the Spirit prompts us to question it, that is a valuable form of personal revelation. It tells us to dig deeper into our self and understand better (we may decide not to follow what they say). Both are a form of God speaking to us — when they reveal stuff that we agree with, and when we don’t agree with them.
Joseph Smith said there were three kinds of revelations: those from God, those from man, and those from the devil. The only way to know for sure which is which is after the fact when you see the fruits. He was serious (and wise from experience, think about that).
Quote:only way to know for sure which is which is after the fact when you see the fruits.
😯 Brian Johnston wrote:Joseph Smith said there were three kinds of revelations: those from God, those from man, and those from the devil. The only way to know for sure which is which is after the fact when you see the fruits. He was serious (and wise from experience, think about that).
The history of the church has shown over and over how good decent people can take something good, bad or indifferent and make something good out of it. Saying that something was from God because it bore good fruits is just not accurate. Read Annie Clark Tanner’s “A Mormon Mother” if you want to see what a good and righteous idea polygamy was.
I’m not sure about that book, haven’t read it. So I don’t know how it portrays polygamy. My point in quoting JS was to show that he acknowledged that even HE got bad ideas in his head and wrongly believed at times they were from God; finding out later that the results went horribly wrong.
I guess I just assumed that if you were a prophet you’d know when God was talking to you and wanted you to do something. GB, that’s a common assumption, but it doesn’t match our actual scriptures very well. Old-Timer wrote:GB, that’s a common assumption, but it doesn’t match our actual scriptures very well.
No it does not. But IT IS what the church membership is being taught and what many of our leaders want the members to believe. It’s also why so many members didn’t even blink when the 14 Fs got read into the record during GC, and why myself and so many of us here on this and other boards nearly had a melt down.
PS – see my signature line.
🙂 🙂 Yeah, cwald, there is that. SamBee wrote:Quote:only way to know for sure which is which is after the fact when you see the fruits.
😯 By the way Brian, the reason I used that smiley is because I find it a shocking concept. What’s the point in doing anything if we don’t even know if the end result will be positive?
faith and what it does for us personally – and just because it’s the right thing to do SamBee wrote:By the way Brian, the reason I used that smiley is because I find it a shocking concept. What’s the point in doing anything if we don’t even know if the end result will be positive?
Everything we do in life has risk of failure. I’m not sure what you mean. Is there any other area with 100% guarantees that always deliver?
I’m not sure if we are talking past each other or both being too sly with our humor. It’s all good.
Brian Johnston wrote:SamBee wrote:By the way Brian, the reason I used that smiley is because I find it a shocking concept. What’s the point in doing anything if we don’t even know if the end result will be positive?
Everything we do in life has risk of failure. I’m not sure what you mean. Is there any other area with 100% guarantees that always deliver?
I’m not sure if we are talking past each other or both being too sly with our humor. It’s all good.
Well, if we don’t know whose inspiration it is, why take it in the first place?
SamBee wrote:Well, if we don’t know whose inspiration it is, why take it in the first place?
To find out.
Or we decided ahead of time it isn’t worth it, so we don’t find out.
I try to listen to the Spirit to make GOOD decisions though. I kind of find it disturbing though. Maybe I shouldn’t listen to the Spirit, if I’m not sure it is!!!
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