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So, I attended the regional conference, at my home stake center, that was broadcast from Utah State University yesterday. Two apostles, Ballard and Eyring, confirmed that my whole problem, as one who is experiencing a challenge to his faith, is that I need to study the scriptures. They cited instances of people who were having challenges to their faith coming to them. Restoring their faith had nothing to do with the doctrinal conflicts or issues they were having; it was simply a matter of going back and studying the scriptures more.
I am not surprised by this answer. It is partly an expectation of this answer as to why I haven’t talked to my bishop about my struggles.
My problems: 1) I do study the scriptures (and pray), albeit not with perfect regularity, 2) the root of many of the conflicts in my mind stem from the scriptures, particularly the modern ones, and 3) it always feels like a cop out that they just don’t address some of the issues. I think that is the problem I had with Elder Holland’s BofM talk from conference. He said that all of the issues have been dealt with and put to rest (paraphrased), but I don’t think I’ve ever heard ANY of the issues addressed.
IMO, we tend to put big simple blanket solutions over big, complicated problems.
So, another struggle, but I did get up this morning and read the Book of Mormon.
silentstruggle I sympathize with your frustration and agree with you quite a bit but my reading is coming from the “old” end of the scriptures which the more I read the more I understand both the problems and thankfully some very interesting insights into gospel. You said:
Quote:Two apostles, Ballard and Eyring, confirmed that my whole problem, as one who is experiencing a challenge to his faith, is that I need to study the scriptures. They cited instances of people who were having challenges to their faith coming to them. Restoring their faith had nothing to do with the doctrinal conflicts or issues they were having; it was simply a matter of going back and studying the scriptures more.
and I think we simply have to understand that they aimed this talk at Stage 3 (Sythentic – Conventional faith) the TBMs of the church who were just a bit wobbly and I think the advice also therefore carries with it an underlying message of “keep the discipline of the Church”. The “read the scriptures” message really means a) say your prayers, b) hold Family Home Evenings, c) fulfill your calling, d) do your home/visiting teaching, e) don’t watch or read bad stuff , f) pay your tithing , g) go to your meetings etc. For such a member it might well be enough to jog them back onto the path.
From a positive point of view they could well be right for all of us in a sense. IF we read the scriptures with real intent and with prayerful intent we are more likely to reach scriptural locations that suddenly “speak to us”, that give us a small spiritual nudge, that are in fact our own revelations, the witness of the Holy Ghost. If a person can build up enough of those it can give one a bit of life raft to cling to in a storm of uncertainty. I have certainly found this working with the Old Testament where I have more or less come to the understanding that the Documentary Hypothesis and its various other critical methods are probably correct about how the Old Testament was constructed and developed. But when you come to something like Exodus 15:1-18, the Song of Sea, and understand that it might well be the oldest fragment of the original oral tradition of Israel and simply feel its power and how it has helped to hold a people together for millenium then the study is worth it.
I am in full agreement that I would much rather the GAs were directly addressing the issues but perhaps they simply can’t, we “fully involved” questioners have to find our own way back, helping each other as we do here.
I think at times I have resented the “just read and pray” admonitions too. Sometimes I have wondered if they were side stepping important issues or perhaps not fully comprehending with compassion and validation the doctrinal and other concerns that plague so many hearts. But I think over this last little while I have been changing my attitude about this admonition and disciplining myself to trust and belief instead as I have realized that my skeptics perch didn’t bring any answers either. I really think the brethren are trying to teach us the power of personal revelation and for whatever reason, applying oneself to faith filled scripture study and pondering filled prayer seems to be the prereq’s for receiving important tutorials from the Lord. They waxing kind and the line upon line kind that help us build a proper and sound understanding of men and things.
And you know, maybe the brethren should address more questions directly. I can’t in all honestly say that I don’t see them try. I honestly think that I do see some efforts to address big issues. But even with all that, I am not convinced that if they did it would truely satisfy. And I suspect they know this and are trying to point us to what we reallly need, which is contiunous personal revelation.
We must get our revelation for ourselves! Where else but inside heartfelt, faithfilled, humility driven study can such important answers really be found? And I think its important to say that the process of getting it…..of forging open the conduit to heaven… is more about our own internal changes and nuturing a relationship with God. Its about faith and humility and sanctification and desire and then more obedience.
I think its a ten virgins thing. We gotta get our own oil.
I have tried to keep a balanced approach to continue studying from the scriptures, as the GAs suggested, thinking I can’t resolve my issues by completely divorcing my mind from that material. I want to resolve my issues, not replace them with other stage 3 materials from an outside source. For much of my life, scriptures were a good source to reaffirm what I believed. I can find things in them that help reinforce church teachings.
But it seems to me that when I’ve allowed myself to be open-minded to think more maturely about things, the scriptures are not the hands down source of all problems in life…if they were, wouldn’t the church membership be about 5 billion by now? Clearly, some find the answers they need there, others find their answers elsewhere.
If you ask Lance Armstrong what is the best exercise for the human body, he’d say cycling. Michael Phelps would say swimming. Neither of those appeal to me.
Sometimes, there are individuals that need something more than just “go back and reread the scriptures” – for some, that is not enough. It may be the right thing for Elder Eyring or Ballard to teach as it may be what the majority of people need and should be taught it is one powerful tool to be exhausted…but it is not a magic bullet for all people in all circumstances. I would think most people get to a developmental stage at some point where they agree that life is more complex and has more paradoxes that require many different tools in the workshop to get the job done, not just scriptures.
Beautifully said, heber. My thoughts exactly. silentstruggle wrote:I think that is the problem I had with Elder Holland’s BofM talk from conference. He said that all of the issues have been dealt with and put to rest (paraphrased), but I don’t think I’ve ever heard ANY of the issues addressed.
IMO, we tend to put big simple blanket solutions over big, complicated problems.
Actually, Holland DID address some of the bigger questions about the BoM. Unfortunately, he put the big simple blanket of “pathetic” over all those issues. So, I guess you now know how the brethren would/will address those problems. At least, contemporarily .
Yes, I didn’t think “pathetic” was a very nice word to use – if he was addressing any sincere concerns, or even anyone other than the worst blatant enemy. So I hope he wasn’t talking to the sincere who have questions. I do think a lot of the preaching, especially at Gen Conf, is to the 99, not to the 1. It would be somewhat appropriate that this is so. But by the same token, each person does have an individual situation, does have individual experiences, does have a different set of concerns or personal issues. We address the 99 because we know what works for them. But some pretty pivotal people were the 1. IMO, every convert to the church from JS onward was a 1. Not a 99. Yet most of our preaching is to the “converted,” not to the ones struggling. Scriptures can be thought provoking in a highly individualized way, so I suppose that’s a useful instruction for those struggling because of that aspect. I don’t know that it’s the answer to the struggle, just a way to try to find your own answers to your own struggles. Thanks for all the great responses. Once again, I am really grateful for staylds. Without it, I would have no forum for asking/discussing these things, and I would probably pop like a balloon. This sounds familiar. Personal and current battle! DH gets quite upset with me b/c I don’t “Read the Scriptues” “Enough”. He has made it pretty clear that I am struggling simply b/c I don’t read the scriptures as much as I read on this forum. As of right now that is true .. I don’t literally read from BOM/D&C/PoGP/Bible as of right now, and I go online reading “Things Mormon” maybe 10-15 minutes a day, that includes lds.org and the current talks(modern day revelation!) posted on their homepage-Mostly to see if I relate to posts or talks. Then he becomes upset at himself b/c he then realizes he barely “Reads Scriptures” either. Sometimes I’m jealous – Must be nice to just have faith and believe without even having to “Read Scriptures” for any reason other than fliping through what the teacher happens to bring up in GD.(I had to say this to DH..b/c it does fustrate me) So I guess any “Guilt Trips” about not reading scriptures “Enough” work out in my favor as of right now. Although I might think DH is spritually immature at times he is wise enough to look inwards and judge himself ,sometimes after judging me. At least self search ,by DH, is done eventually throughout our conversations, and I am happy to have that! I thought I should add that the advice of “Read Scriptures” makes me sad b/c I have read them … But I just can’t seem to find “The Church” actually in them or at least answers or explanations for “Church” conduct recent and past..The things I have problems with..the culture..some of the “Witewashing” .. If anything they turn me more towards Christ, personal revelation, and personal growth and away from Church and Church culture. So it does not work for every little problem, or individual-as others have stated.(I hold The Church and The Scriptures to be completely seperate – The scriptures are of NO blame for my disaffection from The Church just fyi!)
silentstruggle wrote:
Two apostles, Ballard and Eyring, confirmed that my whole problem, as one who is experiencing a challenge to his faith, is that I need to study the scriptures. They cited instances of people who were having challenges to their faith coming to them. Restoring their faith had nothing to do with the doctrinal conflicts or issues they were having; it was simply a matter of going back and studying the scriptures more.
This reminds me of a bishop we had who would get up in Sacrament meeting and often say, “If you just obey all the commandments, you won’t have any problems.” First of all that is a false thing to say as lots of members who obey the commandments have problems. Secondly, reading scripture sometimes brought more questions and doubts for my husband and I than developed our faith. We could not relate to all those people in the bible or bofm that were having all these marvelous spiritual experiences. Living the gospel and reading scripture can help in many ways, but it does not solve the problem of church history, or other questions that arise that need answers. I know too many gay people who were told to fast, pray, read scriptures and go to the temple and they would over come their same-sex attraction. So, to ignore real questions we have makes us feel like we don’t matter. Bushman is one of the few historians that understand this and know this must be address and not just washed over. Too many members and converts have access to the internet today and cannot just ignore the problems with the church with pat answers we are given. Thank goodness we can discuss them here.
We have a friend who was told to search the scriptures for some answers to some serious marital problems she had. She is TBM and it caused a lot of stress for her when she didn’t find the answer in the scriptures. silentstruggle wrote:We have a friend who was told to search the scriptures for some answers to some serious marital problems she had. She is TBM and it caused a lot of stress for her when she didn’t find the answer in the scriptures.
I don’t think the problem is caused because she didn’t find the answers in the scriptures. It’s because she confined her thinking into a very narrow definition of how God might help her with her problems. What we really need to do is do our best with regards to obedience and then wait with faith for the arm of the Lord to be revealed in however way and in what ever timing the Lord deems wise. I honestly think this is one of the main problems of mormon thinking. We hear over the pulpit…..”Read and pray and everything will be fine” and we decide that what that means is that 2+2 =4. If I do that, then I won’t have any problems or all my problems will be worked out in the next two weeks or I won’t feel any discomfort or pain. NO ONE, not the scriptures or our leaders or God himself EVER promised that obedience kept problems away. What it means is that we will be supported in our trials and dark times. If we read and pray it opens us to the possibility of revelation and blessings. It doesn’t control how God will deal with us. And it doesn’t nullify the fact that we have to work on and out our own problems. God is not a helicopter parent! He doesn’t always run to pick us up when we fall or answer all our pains with immediate healing. And he doesn’t always answer our questions with a direct and immediate answer. God won’t command or answer in all things. And why not? Because he trusts us!!!! He gave us, when he created us and in the pre earth life, what it would take to meet our individual challenges. He doesn’t always intervene BECAUSE he loves us and knows we need to learn sometimes to pick ourselves up and find the strength, not in the heavens, but within. We need the struggle and we need the discipline of reading and praying too. They both work together for our good. It’s a partnership between God’s strength and our effort. It’s a good that happens over time and that develops in us the best most refined outcomes…IF we don’t get so focused on our pain and the impatience of getting out of it that we can’t learn what the pain is there to teach us in the first place.
Reading and praying works. But it isn’t a simple or predictable thing. The blesssings come over time after lots and lots of waxing moments. It’s not a magic eight ball that we shake and read. Its a vital part of the puzzle that invites God into our lives and problems and opens us to greater views and tutorials if we will exercize the faith that taps into the power. God will be there for us in our afflictions. He will answer and comfort and heal and bless. But not until his purposes have been accomplished and his will for our inner spiritual character is ready.
Poppyseed wrote:What it means is that we will be supported in our trials and dark times. If we read and pray it opens us to the possibility of revelation and blessings. It doesn’t control how God will deal with us. And it doesn’t nullify the fact that we have to work on and out our own problems. God is not a helicopter parent! He doesn’t always run to pick us up when we fall or answer all our pains with immediate healing. And he doesn’t always answer our questions with a direct and immediate answer. God won’t command or answer in all things. And why not? Because he trusts us!!!! He gave us, when he created us and in the pre earth life, what it would take to meet our individual challenges.
I tend to believe this as well, Poppyseed, and the way you said it and your faith is inspirational… but when it comes to some of the most important matters in our life (marital problems, etc), to me it seems the direction from members of the church teaching the principles is that with enough faith He won’t leave you alone, and one is entitled to blessings and direction. And then when you feel left alone at a time when you’re desperate, it is hard to see that He trusts us or it is for our own good. I have come to the conclusion in my own life that He must know more than I, and when I needed help most and didn’t get it, it must be there to teach me something and I must be stronger than I think and He knows I can handle it or should handle it, but I gotta tell you…it is a trial of faith. It hurts. It is like a best friend who is fun to hang out with and watch football (trivial but rewarding times), but when I need help the most (packing and moving), my friend is no where to be found. When that happens, it stings and changes the way I look at my best friend…maybe the person doesn’t care as much as I thought and the closer friendship I thought I had was more in my mind and my expectations than what was real.It is about expecations Ray wrote about…but the expectations seem to be set ahead of time with no conflict. The church is teaching we must have faith we WILL for sure be blessed or comforted, even though sometimes we won’t?? Shouldn’t we help the struggling marriage couple set the correct expectations instead of telling them, “Read the Scriptures and it will bless your life”. That may be easy to say from a bishop’s office in a peaceful setting. It may be hard to see or hear that wisdom on the battlefront of life.
I like the idea of scriptures to provide some moral direction and spiritual guidance. But when real world problems come to my children as they grow up, I will probably tell them they should read the scriptures and pray….BUT they must also stand and deal with the problem themselves (emphasizing the last part). Scriptures are one source of help…not the only source and not for all people in all situations. That has been what I’ve learned and will want to pass on to my friends and family.
You think I don’t understand. If only I could help you understand how much I really do understand. Trite advice from loving but blind and deaf bishops…..been there done that. Believing that the doing all the “stuff” would save me from pain and searingly difficult struggle. Made that mistake too. Even made it again this week when I thought I had already learned it. It has been my experience that the scriptures are here for us
specificallyfor the battlefronts of our lives. I don’t know how it happens but God can use some unrelated verse about war and teach me how to love my mother in law. He can use a random, obscure vrs about some dude named Zoram and infuse into my heart that I my needs are not forgotten. The scriptures CAN and DO help us in the firey furnaces of our trials. Just yesterday, I woke and determined to take off my garments and leave the church. You see the trials were too hard this week and no one was answering my prayers! No friend there to help me know I would be ok. And then there were my scriptures. I listened for the spirit. I read in hopes that they would help. I read Abraham 3. Now you tell me what Abraham 3 has to do with hope! But somehow, I woke this morning feeling renewed in my hope and more committed than before and like God understood the necessity of my strugglings. How did that knowledge come to me? Maybe I am just smoking pot and imagining the whole darn thing.
Learning to stand and deal are important life lessons for all of us. In fact, God used Nephi’s ordination to teach me those same lessons. His ordination! Ask me how God made it one of the most powerful moments in my life, but he did. He put the wisdom in me and left me to do what I would with it.
The scriptures aren’t the only source of truth. They aren’t the only words of wisdom that heal and lift and teach. But God can use them in powerful ways. I can’t not say that I am not familiar with the miraculous parts of the process. And I can’t say the process doesn’t work just because my 6 bishops and 2 SP’s were so blinded they couldn’t how insulting their words were. I am saying that we are all learning and that God is still inviting with simple short invitations and that He does keep his word and he does bless even if part of the blessing is the struggle itself.
What a great post, Poppyseed. Thanks so much for sharing! The post was full of incredible faith and hope you have…and also expressed how hard things can be and how you were ready to be done with church and all because life is so hard (which sounds so sad…yet I identify with that feeling), but your faith pulled you through.
To me, that teaches me I must remember the state of my heart when opening the scriptures. Something I must continue to work on.
I really like the way you put in in your prior post:
Poppyseed wrote:Reading and praying works. But it isn’t a simple or predictable thing.
I don’t think I always like the “not predictable” part about it…but like your experience and many similar I have had a long time ago, there is evidence it works. It is just hard to know how to tell others about it (like well intentioned Bishops try to do) when it is not predictable, and in crisis moments it is so hard to patiently wait.
I guess I don’t understand it, but I still believe it is the Spirit that helps the Abraham 3 scriptures speak to you today about hope, and tomorrow it could speak to you about something else.
It is a mystery to me. It is based on faith, I believe.
Thanks again for sharing.
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