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Boy do I feel disheartened today. I have a very good friend far away who I talk to about a lot of matters of mutual interest– family, global economic conditions, outdoor activities, church leadership, and sometimes the gospel. We asked me about my church life. I explained how I felt happier now than in many years with a different perspective on my relationship with the church. He asked for details…now, he is afar away, and a good friend, and unorthodox in a few minor ways, so I opened up and shared my newfound glasses. 1) That I need to relate to the church on my own terms.
2) That I see it more of a temporal organization with some inspiration than a fully inspired organization with some minor temporal concerns (like most traditional believers believe).
3) That I think part of the experience is to make us good Mormons rather than good people sometimes, with organizational goals often shadowing over individual needs .
4) That I’m comfortable being a benchwarmer and supporting my family. In fact, I like not having a calling right now.
5) That I think it’s time the church looked inward about the experience it provides for its members, and stopped blaming all less activity and concerns about the church on the members.
I was simply matter-of-fact about what I thought….not delievered in harsh voice tones.
He launched into a very strong tirade about how I am apostate now. I can’t see it, he said, but I’ve been hanging out too much online and that my beliefs are “stupid”. At this point I fell off the wagon and was totally shocked. All trust evaporated with the stupid comment.
He then told me if I really felt that way, why I even bothered coming to church anymore. Why not go to some other low-commitment church, reap the benefits and contribute nothing like I’m doing right now? He gave an all or nothing approach again, saying “either you believe JS is a prophet or not”. “You think the prophet and apostles serve for personal gain…? To deceive us….??”
Again, I was shocked as I’m still a home teacher, help out with lessons here and there, attend church every Sunday, support my family, don’t dissuade them from TBM beliefs, and socialize with the Ward. I have hopes of perhaps returning to full activity with a different perspective some day, and don’t want to cut off those options….my children are fully active…and my wife has a calling.
I countered his comments with something I said he needed to hear. That being committed as he is also blinds him. I told him flatly that he’s extremely judgmental. He had previously launched into strong feelings about a disenfranchised group within our LDS community, using pejorative terms that I found offensive. Rather than take it to heart, he reiterated why he feels that way and chose not to recant that lack of charity in his use of such terms. I also commented that I was having a bit of trouble getting past the “stupid comment” and that the trust he had generated had put him in a position to truly know what I’m thinking. An advantage many traditional believers never get to with people in their wards because of fears they will be labelled just as he has labelled me.
Anyway, I think this shows the risks that being honest with how you really feel. I’m pretty sure everyone knows this now, but I guess I needed to be reminded that even in situations of apparent trust, being too honest about how you feel can really hurt relationships.
Going forward, I suggested we not talk about the church anymore. I guess I really screwed up in being honest with how I feel, and it sure was a good test of what is likely to happen if I ever get honest at the local level. Do not go there!!!
SD, this is a very interesting response from someone you consider to be a close friend. You said:
Quote:I think this shows the risks that being honest with how you really feel. I’m pretty sure everyone knows this now, but I guess I needed to be reminded that even in situations of apparent trust, being too honest about how you feel can really hurt relationships
Opening up your life to another human being is a risk.
When I became inactive, I didn’t talk to anyone from church.They didn’t talk to me.
Now that I’m trying to be active again, I’m being very selective about who I talk to & what I say.
It seems strange that it has to be that way in an organization that claims to come directly from God.
Don’t give up, choose your friends wisely & always be open to your “real” friends.
Now that I look back on my life, the period I was totally inactive was the time I became closer to my children.
I was totally honest with them. We talked alot. We did things together that wasn’t related to a church responsibility or calling.
My wife & I are a different issue. Improving but not perfect.
I wish you the best!
Mike from Milton.
I agree — my family relationships are better now as there is much less stress. But I have been a very good friend with this person I’m telling you about for many many years. I value the friendship….I think I have learned that I need to “contain the relationship wiThin the bounds SilentDawning will set” — limit it to general spiritual issues, and the other issues we have in common. Water and fertilize that part of the relationship. Starve the relationship of unorthodox views that offend him. Build on common ground. SD, maybe you should write a letter. I think there are thing we can say in writing that we can’t say “in person”, email or a phone conversation. This may sound strange. (It wouldn’t be the first time for me on this forum.)
I went to an AA meeting this weekend. Some of the people there I’ve known for 20+ years. Some I met that day.
I had the overwelming feeling come over me. Iam blessed for being an Alcoholic.
I am closer with my friends in AA than I can ever be with friends from Church, work or even family members.
The reason for that is our common problem, dealing with alcohol, our program of recovery & complete trust that what I choose to tell them is
confidential. Our common goal is to stay sober (for today) & encourage each other to do the same.
I believe that our Church is missing out on a great opportunity (& blessings) when they judge, instead of trying to understand members have
challenges to their faith. Our goal should be: let’s address the challenges together. Both as members & the Church as a whole.
That’s my rant for today!
Mike from Milton.
Yikes! That stings. Sorry to hear that went badly for you. Maybe your friend is trying to “rescue” you. I say that in jest, but there may be some truth to it. People can only give what they have to give, and maybe all your friend has to give right now is a slap down out of some combination of duty and love. Who knows? This just goes to prove that we are all on an individual journey. Sometimes we can share that journey with others, and sometimes it just doesn’t work out that way. In any case, we need to keep doing our thing, testing and probing, and moving forward as best we can. Hang in there.
That’s tough. I was reading in Romans 14 today about what the real kingdom of god is: Romans 14:13-17 wrote:Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother’s way. I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean. 15 But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.
Let not then your good be evil spoken of: For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
It occurs to me that the TBM saints are just like the Jewish Christians in the original church that were obsessed with keeping Kashrut/Kosher law, hence the comment about ‘meat’. Paul suggests that we stop judging one another about the level of commitment we have about the gospel, but rather, live and let live.Your friend is completely out of line — uncharitable and wrong. I’d be in the mood to say, “I’m sorry, does seeking the truth about the church and gospel bother you? I’m under commitment to seek and serve the truth, as all truth is circumscribed into one great whole. I’m ok if you don’t want to know the truth of church history, but please don’t judge me for seeking the truth.”
@mike: I’ve always found AA to be a much warmer, accepting environment for us sinners. It’s quite a blessing to have a good home group and accepting set of fellow-drunks.
cheers!
I’m not surprised at all about his reaction – but I am saddened. Yes, we need to learn lessons in life, but the way we learn them sometimes sucks. Fwiw, it wasn’t that you were too honest; it was that you were too open and shared too much. There is a difference, and it’s an incredibly important difference. I try to be completely honest about my beliefs – but I choose to be selectively open about the specifics of my heterodoxy. There is no conflict in those two statements – none, at all.
SD, I hate that this happened to you but I hope you are comfortable knowing that his overreaction was a reflection of who he is not who you are.
Much love,
Cate
Silent Dawning, my heart sank when I read this. When people get this strong, I can only believe they are feeling threatened. When charity is so completely abandoned and never a second thought about judging another, there is an issue with that person. Maybe he has his own doubts and he is able to keep them buried. You may have helped the issues come to the surface. We live and we learn. After I had my eyes opened to just how nasty some folks in the church can be and yet are in leadership and thought so highly of, I had to stay away from the majority of people I would ordinarily hang with. The reason for this was so that I wouldn’t pour out the things I was now aware of. I didn’t want to weaken the faith of others and there was no way to address some of this stuff, as the typical channels simply were not adequate for these issues. It has taken a long time for me to recover but I am very careful about sharing my views with others. I know my Heavenly Father knows exactly what I think and feel and I feel I am acceptable to Him. I do my best and I rely on the Atonement. In one way, those people have strengthened my viewpoint on how much Heavenly Father allows us to proceed ahead and doesn’t take away anyone’s agency, even if he/she is in a trusted position of authority. Keep building your family. It matters! Serve Heavenly Father as you see opportunity. Love. Forgive. ( I am sharing my personal prescription…accept it if it will help. 🙂 He’s easy to forgive…he’s been a VERY good and loyal friend. It’s a case of forgiving a friend, not an enemy. I was at Church today (a different Ward) and had a conversation with another traditional believer, but more of an intellectual, and we got on the topic of judgmentalism (without any reference to my story above). He told me about an article called: “I’m Christian — Unless You’re Gay”. I intend to find it and read it as my other friend at Church said it’s about how Christians are great Christians until they run into someone who is gay. I think it typified my experience at the outset of this post, but in reference to unorthodox believers. If the message in that article is what I think it is, it could probably be rewritten as “I’m a Mormon Christian — Unless You’re Unorthodox”.
When we reach out and are more authentic with people, we open ourselves to risk. No risk, no reward. Right SD? That’s the law of economics and business. It’s the same with our connections to others. I’ve pushed the envelope slightly too far plenty of times too. It’s tough to hear the push back, especially if you aren’t expecting it. On the other hand, you may have very well blessed his life by turning the other cheek and continuing to be his friend. That is what the Savior taught in his words and by his example, and turned the last ultimate cheek upon the cross in the end, to give the gift of love and redemption.
Silent Dawning, It’s a good warning and reminder for us all. I’ve had good luck talking to some, not-so-good talking to others, but the outcome is always unpredictable. I’m sorry that your confidence was negatively rewarded.
Some thoughts on potential ways ahead… One way to look at this is that your friend may have felt betrayed by HIS close friend… even a little attacked. He might be out on church-friendly forums right now talking about how disheartened he was that such a good friend could turn his back on everything that he holds so dear. I can tell you that, in my case, If the old me had met the current me, the old me would have been shocked. So, while your friend didn’t react well, I would actually suggest an attempt at reconciliation.
It can be very difficult to understand motives of people with different opinions. Case in point, recently, I was sitting in an airport and a nearby couple was having a philosophical conversation about how levels of caring about others are affected by how closely-connected you feel about them. Their argument was that the plight of people with a different way of living, or in a far away land (Syria) didn’t affect people here as much. At one point, the woman said that she still did care. When challenged by the man about why, she said it was because of her Christian values. So, he proceeded down the line of, ‘but what if you were an Atheist?’ and his argument was that Atheists have no motivation for any level of morals, or human compassion. I was tempted to go over and sucker-punch the guy, but let it go, because I’m not out to force anyone else to my way of thinking, but it was very irritating. As I’ve said here before, while I stay involved in the church and find much good in the church, I myself am an Atheist, true blue, through and through. This example was a reminder to me that frame-of-reference is everything. To this man and woman, Atheism is unapproachable. It is so foreign to their way of thinking that they cannot wrap their brains around the concept, and just paint a mental picture of Atheists as people devoid of every good quality that they perceive as having come from God.
An example that we’ve probably all seen to some degree: I’ve had a few people wonder out-loud about me and basically assume that I am in the position I am because of SIN on my part. As annoying and offensive as that is, I understand it. They come from a position where they simply don’t understand how any person can turn their back on the church/gospel voluntarily, without being driven away by their own poor actions. Again, it’s just a simple matter of frame-of-reference.
Perhaps your friend is in the same dilemma. It probably made his head spin to learn that you had such radical views. If you do decide to talk to him about it, I suggest staying away from causes for your position, and just say that you don’t love the organization of the church like you once did (or something along those lines). Also, IMO, it’s critically important to be at least as respectful, understanding, and supportive of his position as you expect him to be of yours. While I loved Mike’s comments about finding close friends at AA, I must respectfully disagree about writing your friend a letter. I do think it would be a good idea to write down some of your thoughts, but then eat the paper and go talk to your friend. My guess is that he feels just as hurt and confused as you.
On Own Now, please…no to “sucker punch”. Yes to “bitch slap”. Whenever I hear a point of view like this, I wonder how many times I’ve said something similar to this conversation.
Fortunately, I got better.
One of my very best friends is an Athiest. I trust him to help me with my retirement account.
I trust him more than anyone else in the Church. Even President Monson.
Mike from Milton.
Mike wrote:no to “sucker punch”. Yes to “bitch slap”.
Ha ha… yeah, probably should have.Mike wrote:I wonder how many times I’ve said something similar to this conversation. Fortunately, I got better.
Yep, that’s exactly it. I’ve been on the other side, too. At that time in my life, it seemed logical and right. But now I look back on it as narrow-minded. The reality, though, is that there are probably things I think and do now that I will look back on later in life and wonder, “what was I thinking?” I’ve got to be tolerant of people that are currently stuck where I was once stuck… if not, I’m just a hypocrite.
Don’t know as I can relate fully to this, but I can sure imagine. My relationship with one in-law has not been the same for the past few years ever since we got into a disagreement over politics (he’s of the Skousen school of thought), and I have had other conversations with other in-laws regarding things like divinely-commanded wipe-outs of cities in the OT that drew enough defensive wrath that I thought it best to drop the subject. In the last couple wards I’ve lived in (one in the eastern US, the other in the southwest), there have been enough liberal-minded folks that maybe I’ve gotten a bit spoiled. Moving back to the heart of orthodoxy soon should be . . . interesting; I’m gonna have to watch my mouth even more closely than I do now.
All the best wishes from me in restoring your relationship.
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