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Fatherof4husbandof1 wrote:
… and after reading “The Mysteries of Godliness- a history of Mormon temple worship- I see it as a complete waste of time, and money. This is just my opinion.
I *have* to dig that out of the box it’s in and read it. I bought it 6 years ago or so, and still keep finding other things to read before it. Right now I’m reading James’ “The Varieties of Religious Experience” (again) and Nibley’s “One Eternal Round”. On my MP3 player I’ve got McCullough’s “John Adams”. I know, TMI…
HiJolly
DevilsAdvocate wrote:
I’m not trying to look down on anyone and disrespect or criticize their decisions based on their sincere beliefs, I’m sorry if anything I said came across that way.I appreciate that.
DevilsAdvocate wrote:A more accurate description of my point-of-view is that I feel sorry for some of these members that are making extreme sacrifices for the Church. Maybe they don’t want any pity, but the reason I can’t help feeling this way is mostly because I think many of them are making these choices based on limited information and/or under significant pressure from other members.
DA, we’re ALL making choices based on limited information. I don’t care if you read every book ever written on God, Jesus, Mormonism or whatever, what we know or believe is all based on limited info. You and I are no different than they. Everyone should pity everyone else.
DevilsAdvocate wrote:It would be easier for me to give the Church and other members the benefit of the doubt that they are doing all this because they really want to and honestly feel good about it if they had actually heard both sides of the story so they could make an informed decision but I doubt that is actually happening in most cases.
I could make a really crude comment about “informed decision(s)”, but I’ll refrain… Why do you suppose the first principle of the Gospel is faith? Should rationality be your guide, or personal experience?
DevilsAdvocate wrote:If the Church would tone it down with some of their claims and expectations or try to make sure people really understand what they are getting into and why then I would gladly stop criticizing their approach. However, as long as they only present whitewashed history then I’m not going to apologize for complaining about their demands for all this sacrifice because as far as I’m concerned this just isn’t a very Christian or ethical way to treat people.
I *do* wish we could switch the Sunday meetings from being devotional only to being educational and a few other things, including some devotional time. I even regret that we don’t do ‘practice hymns’ anymore…
DevilsAdvocate wrote:For example, what happens when the typical TBM that goes on a mission, gets married in the temple, faithfully pays tithing, doesn’t turn down callings, etc. for half their life stumbles on some anti-Mormon propaganda on the internet and loses faith in the Church? Many of them will inevitably feel like victims and will be bitter toward the Church because of all this time, money, and effort they’ve invested in it. That’s why I recommend saying no to the Church if you don’t feel good about something to anyone that will listen, not just for their own sake but hopefully to send the message that enough is enough and maybe help the Church gradually move toward some positive changes.
Preachin’ to the choir, chief!HiJolly
Old-Timer wrote:Let me just say that we are walking a very slippery slope when we ask others to honor our different choices, beliefs and sacrifices (and even, hopefully, value them) if we aren’t willing to do the same for their sincere, deeply held choices, beliefs and sacrifices….
I guess I missed this particular reference, because it certainly is not what I’ve been talking about or saying. These folks did what they were told and taught to do to have an ETERNAL FAMILY. It took great faith —- but at what cost? And were those costs really necessary and were the worth it. I cannot answer if it was worth it, only that man, his wife, and his kids who will live with consequences of being seperated for four years can answer that question. And they won’t know an answer for many many years to come.
My point – the whole thread I think, is “why are we doing this?” Why? The church does not need or have to ask these kind of sacrifices on families, because if the endowment is as essential as we claim it is, why are we not doing more to ensure that EVERYONE who wants it can get it in a reasonable manner?
Yes, we are building temples, but do we really NEED temples to give endowments? We went decades without them because we were poor and didn’t have them available. Sounds kind similar to what we are dealing with in many of these third world countries.
As far as the temple story. I don’t begrudge the man who sacrificed. Good for him if that is what he wants to do.
I guess if anything, I question the church culture that puts so much emphasis on the temple on one hand, and how important family is on the other hand – even saying things like “all programs and policies of the church are here to build up and strengthen the family.”—- and then sits back and “idolizes” families like the one cited in GC that has to chose one over the other, which appears to be conflicting commandments. And I just don’t think it is necessary or logical or reasonable. Just a side comment. Does anyone actually NOT take TSM’s stories with an enormous grain of salt? He is an obvious embellisher. C’mon – the story about digging her children’s graves with a spoon a couple years back at conference? These stories strain credulity. In my perception, TSM does not embellish these stories in a careful and deliberate manner – he is a meandering raconteur who gets caught up in his storytelling and doesn’t always consider the full application of his stories. I don’t think this story was meant to be taken so to heart, and I strongly doubt its veracity. I think it was meant to inspire the routine sacrifice of driving 20 whole minutes across town once a month.
hawkgrrrl wrote:Just a side comment. Does anyone actually NOT take TSM’s stories with an enormous grain of salt?
Yeah – about 13 million Mormons.
Quote:The Catholics church teaches that the pope is infallible and always speaks for god, yet none of the member will believe it. The Mormon church teachers that the Prophet is fallible and sometimes speaks as a man, yet none of the members will believe it.
Quote:hawkgrrrl wrote…Just a side comment. Does anyone actually NOT take TSM’s stories with an enormous grain of salt? He is an obvious embellisher.
Hawkgrrrl, I really would like to add to your comment, but I fear that Ray is watching.
:silent: Fatherof4husbandof1 wrote:Quote:hawkgrrrl wrote…Just a side comment. Does anyone actually NOT take TSM’s stories with an enormous grain of salt? He is an obvious embellisher.
Hawkgrrrl, I really would like to add to your comment, but I fear that Ray is watching.
:silent:
Ray does a marvelous job on this board. This site is an unique environment *because* of his care concerning content.Love ya, Ray!
HiJolly
It’s ok. I had the “Smite” button removed from my computer last night. :thumbup: Fwiw, I agree with Hawk on this one. Pres. Monson has an amazing memory – and that can be a problem sometimes for a natural story teller. Memory changes things over time, and it’s easy to forget that when it’s a story someone thinks they “know” well.
We all do it to some degree, so it’s no wonder he does it when he tells SO many stories. I don’t think it’s intentional; it just “is”.
HiJolly wrote:DevilsAdvocate wrote:A more accurate description of my point-of-view is that I feel sorry for some of these members that are making extreme sacrifices for the Church. Maybe they don’t want any pity, but the reason I can’t help feeling this way is mostly because I think many of them are making these choices based on limited information and/or under significant pressure from other members.
DA,
we’re ALL making choices based on limited information.I don’t care if you read every book ever written on God, Jesus, Mormonism or whatever, what we know or believe is all based on limited info. You and I are no different than they. Everyone should pity everyone else. DevilsAdvocate wrote:It would be easier for me to give the Church and other members the benefit of the doubt that they are doing all this because they really want to and honestly feel good about it if they had actually heard both sides of the story so they could make an informed decision but I doubt that is actually happening in most cases.
I could make a really crude comment about “informed decision(s)”, but I’ll refrain…
Why do you suppose the first principle of the Gospel is faith? Should rationality be your guide, or personal experience?
I understand that; I’m not really trying to say members need to know everything there is to be able to make the best possible choice for them. My point is that it bothers me that members are asked and expected to make all these sacrifices when many of them have only heard one side of the story because the Church is deliberately giving them misleading information and trying to ignore and deny many basic facts that are likely to cast serious doubts on their official story.
Trying to hide from some of the contradictory evidence will only prolong the agony because it is just sitting there waiting for more members to stumble on or recognize it for what it is. I don’t have a problem with taking a leap of faith in cases where there is no way to know for sure what the real answer is, but persistent faith in spite of and against significant existing evidence and generally accepted facts is on shaky ground and not worth the effort in my opinion. That’s why I think the Church is wrong to expect so much faith in men that have repeatedly proven to be inconsistent and unreliable.
Fatherof4husbandof1 wrote:Quote:hawkgrrrl wrote…Just a side comment. Does anyone actually NOT take TSM’s stories with an enormous grain of salt? He is an obvious embellisher.
Hawkgrrrl, I really would like to add to your comment, but I fear that Ray is watching.
:silent: Yeah, so what. It didn’t stop me from making a snide remark.
🙂 hawkgrrrl wrote:Just a side comment. Does anyone actually NOT take TSM’s stories with an enormous grain of salt? He is an obvious embellisher. C’mon – the story about digging her children’s graves with a spoon a couple years back at conference?
These stories strain credulity.In my perception, TSM does not embellish these stories in a careful and deliberate manner – he is a meandering raconteur who gets caught up in his storytelling and doesn’t always consider the full application of his stories… I don’t think this story was meant to be taken so to heart, and I strongly doubt its veracity. I think it was meant to inspire the routine sacrifice of driving 20 whole minutes across town once a month.I don’t see any convincing reason to doubt that this story is essentially for real. I’m sure there have been many members on remote islands with no temple there so of course it would be relatively expensive to travel to the nearest one. Maybe going to the temple was not the only reason this man was working away from home because there are many cases of non-Mormons basically doing the same thing simply because they can make so much more money that way but other than that it sounds completely plausible to me. Embellished or not, I just don’t like the message that all this sacrifice is supposedly worth it. The truth is that we don’t know that, but my guess is that many things the Church asks people to do are not really worth it at all. In fact, I think the main reason the Church demands and expects all this is simply because so many members have always been willing to do what they are told without much resistance.
The real sacrifice for the typical active member is not driving 20 minutes across town, it happens when members are convinced they need to pay 10% of their gross income as tithing before paying any other bills and on top of that many of these families only have one income and 5 or more children primarily due to the Church teachings/culture encouraging women to be stay-at-home moms. This is no laughing matter when you see that Utah leads the nation in bankruptcies. That’s why I think Thomas S. Monson never should have told this story because it encourages such unrealistic levels of sacrifice as if going to the temple is more important than anything else and this kind of thinking can easily lead to disastrous results for some of the most trusting and faithful members.
Quote:Old-Timer wrote:It’s ok. I had the “Smite” button removed from my computer last night.
:thumbup: Sorry Ray, I had no idea that the “Smite” button could be removed. Now I know. My new concern however is how did HiJ beat you to the punch? no pun… my post 12:15 Hij 12:18 Ray 12:24 Humm?
f4h1
Hmmm? I don’t know DA if I would take it quite that far? I understand the concept of sacrifice — I just think perhaps we have gone little bit extreme in some cases – and this would be a good example of that.
I like to think I can give the leaders the benefit of the doubt, and that they are honestly doing what they think is best for the 85% of the membership. It certainly does not make a lot of sense to me, and it just doesn’t fit right.
If members out there can make it work and make sense of it all, then good for them.
cwald wrote:Fatherof4husbandof1 wrote:Quote:hawkgrrrl wrote…Just a side comment. Does anyone actually NOT take TSM’s stories with an enormous grain of salt? He is an obvious embellisher.
Hawkgrrrl, I really would like to add to your comment, but I fear that Ray is watching.
:silent: Yeah, so what. It didn’t stop me from making a snide remark.
🙂 ya, but cwald you’ve got connections
👿 Fatherof4husbandof1 wrote:ya, but cwald you’ve got connections
👿 :silent: :shh:
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