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cwald wrote:
Hmmm? I don’t know DA if I would take it quite that far?…I understand the concept of sacrifice — I just think perhaps we have gone little bit extreme in some cases – and this would be a good example of that…
I like to think I can give the leaders the benefit of the doubt, and that they are honestly doing what they think is best for the 85% of the membership.It certainly does not make a lot of sense to me, and it just doesn’t fit right…If members out there can make it work and make sense of it all, than good for them. I don’t doubt that most Church leaders have good intentions and think this will be good for members but one of the main reasons why is the questionable assumption that blessings will follow in this life and the next. I get upset by this because I can look around and see some of the negative effects of these extreme sacrifices the Church asks for. Not that there isn’t any value in some sacrifices; I just think the Church has gone too far with the level of sacrifice they expect out of the average member. I understand that some people have more patience for this kind of thing than others but I also think that many members continue to put up with this simply because they don’t know any better yet and they think that’s what they are supposed to do, not necessarily because they really want to do all this and couldn’t be any happier with it.
Quote:I also think that many members continue to put up with this simply because they don’t know any better yet and they think that’s what they are supposed to do, not necessarily because they really want to do all this and couldn’t be any happier with it.
Sure in some cases; but absolutely not in others. It’s really important, imo, to recognize that fundamental differnce in people – and that these stories and actual experiences work and mean a lot to LOTS of people. Those for whom they work outnumber those for whom they don’t work, imo – and I think the personality studies Hawk likes to quote show that very convincingly.
Tinker-thinkers are always going to be on the fringe in most cases, since settlers always outnumber explorers. Society would fall apart if that weren’t the case.
I look at it this way:
Quote:We are to be a peculiar people, so if I’m peculiar within peculiarity . . . maybe I’m doing it better than everyone else.
Old-Timer wrote:Because the leadership and the vast majority of the membership really, truly, deeply believe in the concept and principle of the temple. Period.
There can be other sub-motivations, good and bad, but I don’t think it’s any more complicated in the end than that they really believe in it.
My dad joined the lds church because of genealogy and doing work for his kinred dead. He gathered so many names and loved having temple work done for them. He had alot of spiritual experiences about this so I do know that many members go to the temple to redemn the dead. They feel like Saviors upon Mt. Zion as my dad would say. I have no idea why God would have ordiances done in this way or if this is truly all from God. But, I also know that when Adam and Even were asked why they were doing animal sacrifice they answered ‘we know not, save we were commanded to.” So, the main thing is that you have to have personal revelation that this is God’s work or it would seem strange, and crazy. The first time my husband ever went through the temple he felt like he had just gone through a Klu Klux Klan ritual (1973 when they still had the gorry stuff in the ceremony).
I still hope at times that it is all true because I would not like to think all my dad’s hard work was wasted.
HiJolly wrote:doug wrote:Speaking for myself, my problem is that since this was presented at GC, this anecdote now sets the standard.
But we all know that the story is not ‘standard’, or it never would have been mentioned. We know it is *exceptional*, meaning, a drastic exception from what most people do.
I think that’s just the point. I would be *so* much more comfortable listening to GC, and at church in general, if so much of it weren’t based on stories, factual or otherwise, about extraordinary people and events. I find that for me, discussing normal people dealing with normal problems, experiencing a normal life while trying, and sometimes failing, to grow in love of God and their fellow men is helpful, because that’s the only thing I can relate to.
I agree, doug – and that’s what my ideal is for Sacrament Meeting, where we actually know each other a bit. Sharing our own struggles openly and honestly in a setting like that is wonderful – but it just doesn’t happen often enough. I really do get it on a global level, though – as “The Power of Myth” talks about so well.
It’s also important to remember from the relative comfort of our modern, Western world that LOTS of members who are not in our situation actually relate very well to such mythological stories. In some cases, they are living them as the pioneers of their own regions – and those stories of sacrifice, while “extreme”, often aren’t all that different substantively than some of the challenges they face when they join the Church. That’s so easy to forget.
I have mixed feelings about temples, but I think they do make us what we are. Without the Temples, and modern scriptures, we wouldn’t really be Mormon. SamBee wrote:I have mixed feelings about temples, but I think they do make us what we are. Without the Temples, and modern scriptures, we wouldn’t really be Mormon.
Definitely modern scriptures and prophets. But temples??
Sometimes the things that we have put up as pre-requisites to the temple end up getting emphasized more than temples.
Bingo. I would definitely put temples in there… ahead of prophets even (don’t quote me!). Temples are VERY Mormon. Other churches have revealed scriptures and prophets… very few, other than Mormon sects have temples. I think that at least some areas of the temple should be semi-open, so that people can view temple weddings etc, and people don’t feel we’re doing completely evil things in there.
There’s always two sides to everything. On the one hand, they keep social units together, and encourage tithing… on the other they split families, and eat up funds… they provide people with peace and rest… and cause great stress when people don’t get in.
SamBee wrote:I have mixed feelings about temples, but I think they do make us what we are. Without the Temples, and modern scriptures, we wouldn’t really be Mormon.
We could be Mormons, we just wouldn’t have anything to hold over other religions to make ourselves feel like we have all the answers.
Temples are highly symbolic of what makes our theology so radically different than the rest of Christianity – frankly, the parts of our theology that are the most compelling and mind-blowing to me. One of my favorite quotes is from a farmer I knew as a youth. It has stuck with me for decades because of its poetry and imagery. He said, to the best of my recollection:
Quote:The wonder of Mormonism is that a common farmer like me can spend the morning with my legs knee-deep in mud and muck and manure worried about crops and cows and crap then spend the evening with my head in the clouds contemplating the cosmos and communing with God.
I’m sure he heard that from someone else, since he didn’t talk like that normally and since I heard Richard Bushman say something very similar in a meeting once, but that idea of sacred space where we are able to get away from the crap in our lives and open our minds to the mysteries of the eternities really resonated with me at the time – and I still love that overall perspective, regardless of any other issues.
Jan Shipps said in a lecture I attended last month that the day the LDS Church quits building temples is the day it ceases to be unique and fascinating to her as an outsider – and I think there is a profoundness to that view coming from someone who has spent 50 years studying Mormonism as a devout Methodist.
Brown wrote:SamBee wrote:I have mixed feelings about temples, but I think they do make us what we are. Without the Temples, and modern scriptures, we wouldn’t really be Mormon.
We could be Mormons, we just wouldn’t have anything to hold over other religions to make ourselves feel like we have all the answers.
I don’t see it that way personally. They’re part of Mormondom, much as synagogues, kosher and circumcision are all part of being Jewish. Remove them and you’re not Jewish at all.
Quote:Jan Shipps said in a lecture I attended last month that the day the LDS Church quits building temples is the day it ceases to be unique and fascinating to her as an outsider – and I think there is a profoundness to that view coming from someone who has spent 50 years studying Mormonism as a devout Methodist.
That point is going to come. The problem just now is that there are two main parts of the world closed to us, aka the Middle East, and Bamboo Curtain. The Iron Curtain’s come down, but the quasi-Communist states in the east (not to mention Cuba too) are still there.
At some point in the near future we may reach our ceiling. There’s only so many places you can have temples.
I agee, Sam. The message I got from Jan probably would be more accurately stated by saying the day the LDS Church stops focusing on the beliefs that are emphasized in the temples, rather than stops building them. She said “building temples”, but I think she really meant “emphasizing a temple theology”.
I’d agree with that. But I still expect that in the future, GBH’s tenure shall be seen as the peak of the temple building graph. We could still do with one in this country, but that’s another matter. Paradoxes, paradoxes… the exclusivity of the temple helps make it what it is, but at the same time, it also increases folks’ paranoia, by separating families, and also encouraging some weird ideas. I know some of our ceremonies and beliefs are unusual, but they’re not quite as they’re painted in some places.
SamBee wrote:I would definitely put temples in there… ahead of prophets even (don’t quote me!). Temples are VERY Mormon. Other churches have revealed scriptures and prophets… very few, other than Mormon sects have temples.
Old-Timer wrote:Temples are highly symbolic of what makes our theology so radically different than the rest of Christianity – frankly, the parts of our theology that are the most compelling and mind-blowing to me…Jan Shipps said in a lecture I attended last month that the day the LDS Church quits building temples is the day it ceases to be unique and fascinating to her as an outsider – and I think there is a profoundness to that view coming from someone who has spent 50 years studying Mormonism as a devout Methodist.
I don’t mind the idea of the temple and eternal families in general but what really makes me cynical about them is some of the interview requirements such as the WoW, tithing, sustaining Church leaders as prophets, seers, and revelators, and testimony of the “restoration” as if that’s what being a practicing Mormon is supposed to be all about, that you need to believe and do all this and if not then that’s not acceptable. What’s worse is that it seems like you could be abusive and treat people terribly and still honestly answer yes to most of these questions. It gives the impression that to Church leaders loyalty to the Church and outward acceptance of its exclusive claims comes first and being Christian comes second (if at all) almost like it’s an afterthought.
Personally, I think they should simplify these interview questions and leave more room for interpretation because it seems like salvation should ultimately be between you and God and pretending to know that all this is necessary in so much detail will hurt their credibility over the long run. Another problem I have with these requirements is that they make your supposed worthiness or lack thereof other peoples’ business in a public way. For example, if someone you know is getting married then it is awkward to just not go because you don’t have a temple recommend when everyone expects you to. That’s why it wouldn’t surprise me if a significant number of members lie about some of these questions anyway especially chastity and I can’t say I blame them because it’s embarrassing to talk about and if you are supposed to wait an arbitrary amount of time to properly “repent” then what good does that do if you want to attend a wedding next week?
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