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Cadence wrote:
…I know the church neeeds money to operate and it may not be my place to determine how those funds are spent, but ultimatley I am concerned about where all the money goes, so here are some thoughts;
1. If tithing did stop I doubt all the investments the church has could really fund all its operations, so yes it still needs tithing to some degree.
GBSmith wrote:Given the number of times that the church has been in financial trouble I don’t wonder about it’s feeling the need to maximize financial gain from any source. In the 50’s and early 60’s things got so bad that there’s was a real possibility that the church wouldn’t have enough cash to make payroll…I heard a stake president who was a CPA in the presiding bishop’s office at one time say that without tithing the church wouldn’t stay solvent for a month…
I’m not trying to say the Church doesn’t need any donations at all to operate I just don’t believe that they need anywhere near 10% of the income of all faithful members. You can’t tell me that most other churches like the Catholics, Lutherans, Presbyterians, etc. get nearly this much money from the average follower but somehow they still manage to get by.
My guess is that most other churches that do focus on money like this will also typically have rich ministers so it is fairly easy to see why they would preach this idea but the LDS Church is truly strange in that most callings are voluntary and unpaid and yet they still focus on collecting all this money. Personally, I think insisting on 10% is counterproductive over the long run because like the WoW it gives otherwise sympathetic and well-meaning members one more perfectly understandable excuse to give up on the Church basically over an arbitrary amount of money that the Church doesn’t really need to begin with.
Quote:I think they should avoid the very appearance of evil.
Fwiw, that is a verse that is butchered horribly by almost everyone who quotes it.
Quote:basically over an arbitrary amount of money that the Church doesn’t really need to begin with.
1) It’s not arbitrary; 2) the Church really does need it.
Of course, now we simply are giving contrasting opinions – so there’s no reason to respond to that.
😆 I still remember back in the 70s and into the 80s wards needing to raise monies for their own budgets and individually finance a good portion of building projects. Now with the switch to tithing as the sole source of finance, other than for fast offering, the church is able to level the playing field for different wards. Well to do wards can’t send their kids to Disneyland and wards with less affluent don’t have to skimp on programs like they used to. The church does rely a lot on unpaid help in the form of church service missionaries and having local members take care of buildings. Salaries for paid employees are likely adequate but nobody’s going to get rich in church employ. As far as the 10% giving people an excuse to bow out of activity, my opinion is that’s the last reason but maybe the first excuse.
Frankly I just pay what what I can. What I feel is right. It’s God/HF’s money. Sorry but this is just how I feel. The Church doesn’t know what DW or I make and I’m not telling them it’s not thiers, pay what you think you honestly would pay God if he came to your door and asked. If you can live with that then I think you’re doing just fine. It is on the Church’s shoulders if it’s not being spent the way it should be. 😈 GBSmith wrote:I still remember back in the 70s and into the 80s wards needing to raise monies for their own budgets and individually finance a good portion of building projects. Now with the switch to tithing as the sole source of finance, other than for fast offering, the church is able to level the playing field for different wards. Well to do wards can’t send their kids to Disneyland and wards with less affluent don’t have to skimp on programs like they used to.
This is something I’m sensitive to because I grew up in an affluent ward on Sandy’s east bench that regularly did youth conferences in San Diego and Miami. I’m glad the church leveled the playing field between rich and poor wards. However, the ward continued having these trips and required parents to cough up at least part of the money, and my parents weren’t about to pay $500 to send me somewhere far away for youth conference.
GBSmith wrote:The church does rely a lot on unpaid help in the form of church service missionaries and having local members take care of buildings. Salaries for paid employees are likely adequate but nobody’s going to get rich in church employ.
Well, Bronco Mendenhall seems to be doing pretty well, but in general I agree. One of the main reasons I’ve refused to work for the church is that they generally pay below average wages in the IT field. I understand it’s better than it used to be, but sometimes I get the impression that the church still thinks it’s a privilege to work for them and expect members would beat down their door to land a job.
GBSmith wrote:As far as the 10% giving people an excuse to bow out of activity, my opinion is that’s the last reason but maybe the first excuse.
Well stated.
Tom Haws wrote:What do I do about it? Well, at one stage of growth, one option is to put your tenth elsewhere, somewhere you think is a better steward in line with your beliefs, and call that tithing. At another stage, an option is to stop the practice of tithe-ing in protest or redefine tithing to minimize the error. At another stage of growth, an option is to let go both of the money and your care for how it’s spent.
I think all those options above share the understanding that the LDS Church is not God’s special treasury. But the response varies according to my values and attitude at the moment.
I couldn’t have said it better Tom.
If they told me they could not fix the air conditioning in summer while investing in land speculation nearby, I really would just tell the Bishop I will come back when the building is habitable. Seriously. Not in an angry way at all, just matter of fact. As to what the Church does with the money? At some point, we may decide it doesn’t matter what anyone does with the money.
WEcan also make a purposeful decision to give it to someone else that will do what we want done with it. Those are all different workings of the metaphor of tithing.
Brian Johnston wrote:[
If they told me they could not fix the air conditioning in summer while investing in land speculation nearby, I really would just tell the Bishop I will come back when the building is habitable. Seriously. Not in an angry way at all, just matter of fact. As to what the Church does with the money? At some point, we may decide it doesn’t matter what anyone does with the money.
WEcan also make a purposeful decision to give it to someone else that will do what we want done with it. Those are all different workings of the metaphor of tithing.
Love your attitude Brain.
Yeah, I’ve gone down this path. I just started sharing my tithing money with the people and clubs that I felt good about giving it to. Not sure how that will all work out when I need to renew the ol’ TR to keep my callings, but whatever.
Cadence wrote:…Ultimately I am torn on whether the church should disclose it funds or not. It may cause problems but in the end I believe it would be the right thing to do. When there is no accountability the possibility exists for fraud or corruption. I think they should avoid the very appearance of evil.
One of my favorite podcast dealt with this subject in some detail. It was Mormon Stories with Damon Smith. Here is a true believer who is troubled about what is going on in the church in regard to finances.
I agree – being open & honest about how tithes are spent is the right thing to do.
Accountability encourages honesty.
The church leaders are not God – yet they are supposed to be acting as God/Jesus would regarding finances.
I don’t think Jesus would hide finances & I believe Jesus would allocate much of it to help those in need.
That podcast sounds interesting.
Just so it’s out there in print, I try to be VERY careful about using the “Jesus card” in discussions of just about anything – for many reasons, not the least of which in the case of a discussion like this is that his ministry was WAY different than the running of a church organization. The Jesus card squelches discussion pretty quickly – and if we start using the Jesus card, we really aren’t doing anything different than those who use it to squelch discussions with us about our heterodox views.
Wow. This is a really old thread. I read the last response which wad mine. haven’t been worried about a TR for a long time. Per the question though, I have decided that I will not do tithing settlement until the church is more transparent with their finances. I send my tithing directly to SLC and I will NOT declare my status via tithing settlement. Yes, I will not be able to get TR if I do not claim to be a full tithe payer, but that is the least of my TR problems at this time
Cwald — I think it might be too limiting to lock yourself in that way — saying you won’t pay tithing until the Church becomes more transparent. While the transparency (lack thereof) bothers me too, I think it might be better to say “I won’t pay tithing until I come to grips with the lack of transparency” or something — otherwise you’ll be waiting a really long time. When I have thought the same thing, it gives me that sinking feeling because that belief won’t change the situation. As does the belief that I must be “perfect”. Also, for me, I have this negativism that has developed over the church in general given my experiences, and so, if they published the financials, would it change that? It would probably make me even more aversive to tithing. They changed the CHI of instructions a while ago, and although it helped a bit, I’m not sure it changed much in my attitude — particularly since the local leaders don’t seem to have caught the vision. I think it endeared me a bit to some of the thinkers at the top of our organization, but I havent’ seen it boil down to much that has changed my local experience. In that sense, it has had little effect on my inward activity.
However, on this subject of wealth and the Church, I read an article by GBH called “Why we do the things we do”. He seems to try to minimize the wealth of the Church by pointing to how costly our buildings are to maintain, which is where most of the wealth resides. Using my finance background, I realized that the investment/expense of the buildings is only one part of the investment analysis — these buildings, like any business investment MUST generate cashflow — and President Hinckley left that out. The buildigns provide a place for teaching and training of members, which then leads them to generate tithes and offerings. I view them as a machine in manufacturing which requires investment and maintenance, but which produces some form of wealth generation — and both these sides of the equation need to be considered when determining just how wealth the Church is.
In
Mormon America, the Ostlings (journalists who I think gave a fair view of the Church, stripped of supernaturalism) indicated they view temples the same way. Proximity to the temple, they argue, probably boosts tithing donations given its accessibility. That was why it was brilliant to make smaller temples closer to the members. So, I view the “why we do the things we do” talk as a reframing of the Church’s finances, rather than a full-figured statement.
SilentDawning wrote:Cwald — I think it might be too limiting to lock yourself in that way — saying you won’t pay tithing until the Church becomes more transparent. ….
You make a good point – but I didn’t say I wouldn’t pay tithing. I said that I wouldn’t declare my status in tithing settlement. I send my tithing directly to SLC, and I don’t think it is anybody’s business how much and if i am a full tithe, part tithe or a no tithe payer. If the church decides to be more transparent about their finances, perhaps I will be too.
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