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And BTW This whole release of recording and the Mormon Stories portion released with it has been a soap opera.
It was released as videos first (from live facebook recording), then in audio MP3/podcasts. Then it was taken down and John Dehlin said it was a mistake for him to release it. Some of the panel discussion members are saying they were not fully briefed on what the subject was going to be and the details of the recording.
And my $0.02 was that the panel discussion was the best part of it. And when I say “best” am not saying “juiciest” or most shocking. I am saying that it had some really thoughtful exchanges (including if this release of the recording was ethical). Even the guy from the usually not very reverent Infants On Thrones was almost defending the church. He even re-released this on the Infants on Thrones and titled it “why can’t we be friends?” I came away with him kind of wanting to say this type of interaction is going to get us nowhere. We need to be more mature and try to see each others view a bit. Then Infants on Thrones took it down from their site!
I would assume we will see a Mormon Leak in a few months saying, “to all church leaders and employees – be careful what you say as it could be recorded and released on the internet.” I am not so sure this attempt to expose may have the counter effect – church leaders less willing to reach out and no chance of anybody getting to have a “chat” with church leaders – no matter their sincerity.
Quote:And my $0.02 was that the panel discussion was the best part of it. And when I say “best” am not saying “juiciest” or most shocking. I am saying that it had some really thoughtful exchanges (including if this release of the recording was ethical). Even the guy from the usually not very reverent Infants On Thrones was almost defending the church. He even re-released this on the Infants on Thrones and titled it “why can’t we be friends?” I came away with him kind of wanting to say this type of interaction is going to get us nowhere. We need to be more mature and try to see each others view a bit. Then Infants on Thrones took it down from their site!
I would assume we will see a Mormon Leak in a few months saying, “to all church leaders and employees – be careful what you say as it could be recorded and released on the internet.” I am not so sure this attempt to expose may have the counter effect – church leaders less willing to reach out and no chance of anybody getting to have a “chat” with church leaders – no matter their sincerity.
That has been my opinion from the beginning. It’s been my experience in life if I want someone else to change. I have to change first. Even if it’s only in small courtesies. If they have ever felt hostility from me, the only way to bridge it is for me to remove that style of interaction.
We really can’t betray our imperfect allies in this fashion. And I know that some of them are literally just barely allies–but, they were willing to meet with Trevor to try to help him, and even if their advice was terrible and ill-informed, and even if they trashed Jeremy Runnells in the process, and even if they had no answers and didn’t really understand, it was the best they had to offer. As a church, our leaders are just not trained in pastoral care, and many of those who rise in the ranks are primarily great at loyalty to authority–not scholarship, leadership, or psychology. These leaks and deliberate recordings go too far. The last thing anyone needs is for the church to tighten up the circle of wagons even more, but that’s exactly what will happen.
LookingHard wrote:I would assume we will see a Mormon Leak in a few months saying, “to all church leaders and employees – be careful what you say as it could be recorded and released on the internet.” I am not so sure this attempt to expose may have the counter effect – church leaders less willing to reach out and no chance of anybody getting to have a “chat” with church leaders – no matter their sincerity.
I actually think that’s why we’re not supposed to record GAs in stake conferences or other settings.
Heber13 wrote:Do you fear someday they will ask “you knew these things all along and never said anything to me? You knew i struggled. Why didn’t you tell me?”
I know this is a little off-subject because the quoted question includes “you knew I struggled” but I’ve got a story related to this but from the opposite end of the spectrum.
It all begins when I attended an adult session of stake conference. Yeah I know, who goes to those things? It’s crazy. Anyway, one of the speakers was a long time convert that joined the church shortly after graduating high school. Kinda like me.
They told a story about how some time after joining the church they attended an activity and recognized a couple of people at the activity that they were friends with in high school. The person telling the story confronted their old friends. “You knew about the restored gospel all this time and never said anything to me? Why didn’t you tell me?” The talk was about doing missionary work and how not doing missionary work or even delaying missionary work can put people’s salvation in jeopardy.
I was taken aback by the story… and this was before the beginnings of my faith transition. We had some similarities in that we converted to the church at roughly the same age, it helped me step in their shoes to think about how I might have reacted.
I don’t worry about the “Why didn’t you tell mes?” In relation to converting
tothe church: 1) Who’s to say how the speaker in the adult session of stake conference would have reacted if their high school friends attempted to convert them while they were still in high school? Maybe they would have resisted those efforts and the person would have
neverjoined the church because the earlier attempt at conversion caused them to put up a shield against all things Mormon. We have the tendency to judge past experiences through our lens of the present.
2) We move when we’re ready to move. How much influence do I want to wield in someone else’s faith journey? How much influence would I actually wield even if I wanted to? Someone else’s journey is their journey.
3) The person giving the talk eventually joined the church. They arrived where they wanted to be. I would say that time is irrelevant but there are some time sensitive things about life. For instance, I joined the church when I was still young enough to be able to serve a mission. If I had found the church a few years later I couldn’t have had that experience… but I’d still want to look forward instead of backwards, finding people to blame.
—
Why didn’t you tell me? Maybe you weren’t ready to hear. How am I to know? I’m just like you, trying to do the best with what I’ve got.
The blame game doesn’t really help people move forward but it can still be a part of the journey.
Again, I realize this is off subject, the question included “You knew I struggled.” To that end:
1) Does growth and change come without struggle.
2) Why didn’t you tell me? “Go talk to your mother.”
😈 
:angel: To Nibbler’s point, I completely agree, especially the part about looking at the past through the lens of the present. So profound. When I think about my own faith transition and wonder why it happened when it did, I have no real good answer. I have known about the problems with the church for years and was able to maintain a TBM perspective through it all. At some point, I got a new pair of glasses and I suddenly saw all that same exact information through a completely different lens to the point where I almost have a hard time understanding my previous perspective. The point is that it’s not WHAT information is presented but where we are when we look at it and what set of lens we have on. Someone exposed to the gospel when they don’t have the right lens will never see it as a motivating factor to convert, and similarly, those that look in depth at aspects of church history may not see at as damning, depending on what lens they have on.
I think we can all try to be more accepting of other viewpoints, recognizing that if we were wearing a different pair of eyeglasses at the time (acquired through a series of life experiences), we might see things the exact same way. Trying to force others to see through our lens would be the equivalent of forcing someone to take off their glasses and put on ours, but if their eyesight and prescription is different, they still won’t see what we see, neither will we see what they do. 20/20 vision is relative after all, which is a beautiful thing. So many viewpoints and perspectives, and unlike actual eyesight, they can all be “correct” even if they are wrong for me right now. Who’s to say my eyesight won’t change in the future and I’ll need a new set of lenses? I certainly hope that’s the case – makes the future much more exciting!
That makes a lot of sense to talk about “why didn’t you tell me?” as kind of an unfair question. Perhaps we do what we feel is right and not live with regrets. We also know our kids best, and can try to do what we think is best for them. Some may want to know and can handle things earlier rather than be surprised finding out on their own later. Some may get hung up on it and focus on it if told too much before they are ready for it. There is no one approach to avoid some of these difficult situations in life. Like nibbler was alluding to…things get figured out one way or another in time…perhaps the timing is not as important. Perhaps we focus on relationships being strong enough to handle any bumps…with best intentions.
Of course, as parents…no matter our best intentions…we’ll likely screw it up somehow. We do our best. I’m sure a therapist can blame me for all their problems anyway.
hawkgrrrl wrote:These leaks and deliberate recordings go too far. The last thing anyone needs is for the church to tighten up the circle of wagons even more, but that’s exactly what will happen.
Especially because the leaders at certain levels aren’t professional pastors, or psychologists, or anything but volunteers doing their best…it does seem likely the circling of wagons and more correlation and slower decisions and fewer changes and tighter lips would be the natural result, unfortunately.
Is it more fair to limit leaks and recordings to the “professional” mormon leaders, the ones on the payroll, the ones full-time GAs and above, while the volunteer leaders are really off-limits or not really valid to represent the church?
“recordings go too far” I agree with…but perhaps the good that comes from some of it is that they do try to be careful what they say and how they say it behind closed doors and in meetings, since that is the definition of integrity…right?
[attachment=0]integrity.jpg[/attachment] Or would that need to read Integrity is doing the right thing,
ESPECIALLY if EVERYONE might be watching.
?
Maybe something like…
Quote:you’re a leader now…assume you’re always being recorded!
LookingHard wrote:
Reuben – I hope I have not offended you in your defense of Elder Clarke.
What? Oh! Oh, no, no, no. You didn’t. I’m having a hard time seeing how you might have done so. But don’t tell me! I love these fun human puzzles, and I’m getting better at them all the time.
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