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I posted this on another board, and was suggested that I might come here. My goals are to stay active LDS, and I truly believe in the gospel and plan of salvation. I just have issues with the church structure and leadership. I’m LDS. I’ve been very faithful and very active all my life. I’m feeling disillusioned and am starting to really examine and redefine my personal beliefs. I guess I just want to put it out there since I can’t in my real life. I want to know that I’m not a bad person- that is how my spouse reacts when we’ve talked about my spiritual struggles.
I work for the church. That is the #1 thing that has caused my disenchantment with the church. I have seen some truly horrible things done to people in the name of the church. I have come to clearly understand that each decision made on the higher up levels reflects that the church cares more about the church than the church cares about individuals. The leaders of the church today- or at least the ones running the business side of the church, including some GAs I’ve sat with personally in meetings- would never leave the flock to find the one.
It’s one of those cliche things that people say, about the gospel being perfect, but the people being imperfect. I hear this constantly from coworkers, as we all nod solemnly and then reaffirm our testimonies and love of the church. No love for the church, or too much questioning = no job.
I have had to start at the very most basic levels and reevaluate each tenet, each precept and decide of I feel it is true. I have come to rely heavily on my right to personal revelation. I have actually grown incredibly close to God in this process.
I feel that the gospel is true. I am LDS. I feel very strong in my faith and beliefs and convictions. But I don’t believe the church is led perfectly. I believe that our leaders make more mistakes than they will ever admit, and that they are often covered up with making those who point out the mistakes feel like they are unworthy or unfaithful. I feel that I cannot implicitly trust the leadership of the church. I feel that they guide, and I double check with God myself. Sometimes the spirit tells me what is being taught is just wrong.
I feel as though I do “sustain” in that I support and feel they are called by God. I just feel that even if God asked them to serve in a leadership capacity, that does not mean they will lead righteously. Mistakes are commonly made, and opinion given as scripture, and power abused.
So I am left, leaning on my own shaky legs for the first time. Not taking the words of the GAs as automatic scripture for the first time. Feeling the closest to God I have ever felt. Feeling guilty because I’m not doing the “supposed to” of blind faith. Feeling guilty because my spouse has told me that if I receive revelation that is counter to the teachings of our prophets, I am being led by satan.
Why can’t I trust in myself? Even if it leads me counter to church teachings? I know what I feel. I know I am worthy of my temple recommend. I know I am loved and led and supported by God. Shouldn’t I worry more about God than man? Shouldn’t I lean more on the undeniable impressions on my heart than what a church leader has said?- he could have got it wrong, been lying, or not been worthy himself to lead me.
That sounds horrible, and how can I say that about the church authority, right? But I have seen it undeniably first hand. I have seen the church make and uphold the most immoral, harmful, despicable decisions with regard to vulnerable and innocent members.
So I am left without trust and thinking “who is to say these awful decisions haven’t been passed down and passed off as God’s words in other arenas of the church?” I can’t have been first hand witness to the only instances of this.
I am exhausted. Feeling torn, feeling guilty, feeling indignant. But when I stop and reflect on what I know to be true, and when I check with my God, I feel peace. I feel peace to answer that I am loved, and I am worthy. I don’t need approval from my bishop or anyone else.
How to I resolve this with a church structure that insists I need that approval?
Hello disillusion. Welcome. I don’t envy your situation one bit. On the one hand, I think it would be fascinating to be privy to more of the inner workings of the church and its businesses, but on the other, from what I know already I’m sure I wouldn’t like what I would find in many instances. I’m glad you were directed to this board. Many of the people here have great insights and good advice. We’re all finding our own way and many of us are working on staying in the church for various reasons. I’ve only been here for a few months and I’ve benefited greatly from reading current and past threads and from the insights and advice given to me. Hope to hear more from you.
disillusion wrote:I understand that each decision made on the higher up levels reflects that the church cares more about the church than the church cares about individuals. The leaders of the church today- or at least the ones running the business side of the church, including some GAs I’ve sat with personally in meetings- would never leave the flock to find the one.
What I’m concluding is that the church CAN’T care about individuals more than the institution. “The Church” doesn’t care for the one. It can only facilitate people doing it….or not. When the church doesn’t facilitate me caring for the one – myself, my husband, my child, my brother or sister – I “leave” the church and go after the one. And then I’m back, and it’s a new day and we start over again.
At least, that’s what I’m trying to do.
Best wishes! I’m so thankful for this site.
Welcome! I’m glad you found us, and I hope we can be of service to each other as we figure out how to walk our own, sincere way in the Church. To follow-up on Ann’s comment:
Individuals serve and for care for individuals; organizations serve and care for organizations. All organizations can do is encourage service to and caring for individuals and, sometimes, provide incentives to care for individuals.
I’m not trying to make excuses for anything in saying that, but even the distribution of fast offerings funds varies from ward to ward throughout the Church – and that’s how it needs to be. Bishops can’t care for the poor through a corporate calculation; they have to do it as individuals, based on individual circumstances, if it is to serve individuals needs. Some Bishops are miserly with those funds; some Bishops are generous; the vast majority try to use them judiciously and in a way that provides help to people who really need it – and, like all humans, they tend to give most generously to those they perceive to be most involved organizationally. It’s just the way humans tick.
Welcome, disillusion. This is definitely the site for members to discuss things that don’t make sense in the church. I have learned throughout my life and in faith crisis and reconstruction that although the Gospel is true, the church and its people aren’t perfect. None of us are led by God in every circumstance, but it’s sad when there are people abusing others in the church, especially when it comes from leaders of the church. What helps me stay in the church is following Christ and getting inspiration from the Spirit on a daily basis. First off I just want to thank you for you honesty and integrity. I have been in the position many times through work, church, and the military where people did not stand up when they saw something wrong. It takes real courage to do that especially when it involves something that effects every aspect of your life like what you are describing. I glad that you can distinguish between the church and the Gospel. I am short on time and will come back to this but welcome. Hello! I am new here but have found such comfort from this discussion board and I hope that you will as well. I don’t have any great advice to offer you but I too, have had first-hand dealings with church leaders that are just mean and/or deceitful actions. Two thoughts have helped me sometimes: 1. I can’t control their actions, only my reaction. 2. Karma–what goes around comes around (okay, so this thought isn’t very charitable, but when I’m really angry it helps). Welcome, I echo “church0333″… so much courage to question and separate God/church. I hope you will find safetly in posting here to vent … but more than that I hope you find peace to hold up your courage and heart.
As Mayb mentioned, there are so many loving, non judgmental, and wise people here:) It has been a sanity saver for me!!
disillusion wrote:So I am left, leaning on my own shaky legs for the first time. Not taking the words of the GAs as automatic scripture for the first time. Feeling the closest to God I have ever felt. Feeling guilty because I’m not doing the “supposed to” of blind faith. Feeling guilty because my spouse has told me that if I receive revelation that is counter to the teachings of our prophets, I am being led by satan.
Why can’t I trust in myself? Even if it leads me counter to church teachings? I know what I feel. I know I am worthy of my temple recommend. I know I am loved and led and supported by God. Shouldn’t I worry more about God than man? Shouldn’t I lean more on the undeniable impressions on my heart than what a church leader has said?- he could have got it wrong, been lying, or not been worthy himself to lead me.
Wow. My heart goes out to you disillusion. I echo the comments about how an organization must think, but I am sure that is something you have already considered.
Quote:I have had to start at the very most basic levels and reevaluate each tenet, each precept and decide of I feel it is true. I have come to rely heavily on my right to personal revelation. I have actually grown incredibly close to God in this process.
THIS is awesome! Focus on this. The Church has officially taught us to do this. This is the key of the gospel. It is how you came to your beliefs in the first place. Trust that. You know what you know, you have seen what you have seen, you are obviously coming from a genuine place. Please, give yourself credit for that, and feel OK about it. You talk about “shaky legs”. I have been teaching my kids how to ice skate, excited about the joy they are going to experience when they can glide and fly. They are only use to the stable and safe world of walking, there is so much for them to learn as their brains try to figure out this skating thing. I can give them all sorts of tips, but as they keep trying and persist when they fall on their butts, they are going to get it. You are on the right path, your path. On the other end is the peace that comes from being honest with yourself and others.
You cannot trust yourself, because the books you have read, the friends and family who support you have not taught you how to or modeled it in anyway. I am assuming here, but I don’t know. Look for yourself. Are you closely associated with people who question everything, and when they discover something contrary to common belief have said something about it regardless of personal and real consequences? I did. My gay brother, and all my close associations would point out how crazy and messed up he was. So for me, I was always shown that if you just follow the formula all is well, and that is more important than questioning. I was always taught to be obedient and to not let doubt get in the way of following the guidance of my leaders. All my role models did just that. So for us to say, “Wo, wo, wo something is wrong here.” is very scary. Hang out here a little longer, the fear will fade. Or just wait around a couple of years, because I think this type of thinking is going to be way more common and you will have had a lot more people in your sphere showing and modeling how to be true to yourself and still follow your convictions about the Church.
Here is a tip that helps me. I imagine being in front of God, and explaining where I was genuinely coming from. The Dialogue for you might go like this.
HF or JC: Why didn’t you strictly follow the GA’s of The Church? Why did you question their guidance?
You: Well I saw them do things that I just couldn’t trust. Also, I followed my heart and mind, praying to you, and felt your support. (continue to give the same things you said above) I genuinely thought I was doing what was right.
HF of JC: That’s cool. Good to have you.
My personal policy takes into account the idea that as a Church there does need to be unity, and if I perceive there is no huge cost to my family our that is not clearly immoral, I will go along with it. But if my heart and mind tell me there is something not right, I don’t go with it. The intro reading to this website is such a hugely important read. Check it out if you haven’t. Everyone is a cafeteria Mormon or Christian. We here in this forum, and even the Church itself gives you permission to do this. So give yourself permission. This is faith. This is belief. Which is not necessarily the realm of absolute reality or truth, and knowledge of it. It is a personal thing between you and your God.
I am going to admit that I am very curious about what sorts of things you have experienced. I understand you might not want to share for fear of shedding bad light on the Church, or maybe even risking your career. This is an admittedly selfish question but, can you tell us, even generally, what you have seen? I respect your decision one way or another, but also imagine there has got to be a part of you that feels people should know what is going on. You know that millions of us trust 10% of our money and all of our hearts to a perception that our leaders or God-led, humble, and righteous leaders. We make big decisions based on a perception that may not be completely true. There has got to be a part of you who realizes the struggle you are going through is important for you, and based in truth, thus important for others to experience. Regardless, welcome to these forums, and God bless in your journey.
Welcome! I appreciate your story, I feel for your struggle. I echo the other comments that we are taught to seek confirmation for ourselves, stick to that! :thumbup: There does seem to be paradoxical teachings in some corners of the church regarding trusting in your personal revelation and our leaders are not infallible etc. vs the counter comments such as if your revelation conflicts with leaders you must be in the wrong. FWIW I think the latter is a horrible over-simplification. In the end we do see both good and bad in the church, all we can do is hold to the good and let go of the bad. I am sorry that you find pressure in your life to conform to a particular thought process that does not feel genuine.I’m glad you found us!
Hi there. I’m new here as well, but I thought I would share something of a similar situation I was in years ago. Years ago, when I returned to activity in the church, I was very sceptical of things being said. People always seemed to have wonderful experiences whenever they were doing something they thought the Lord wanted them to do, and I never did. I was almost at the point of leaving again when a man who had been my Bishop, Youth advisor, Sunday school teacher, etc. stood up in Testimony meeting and admitted that he was not perfect, the church wasn’t perfect, but the GOSPEL was. This changed my perception of everyone in my ward. I started to seperate the people from the GOSPEL. This is how I deal with church now. The leaders, from Pres. Monson down to my Bishop, are fallable. They make mistakes. They are not perfect. The Gospel, however, is beautiful, perfect, and loving.
I hope that helps with your situation.
10 years ago I worked in the Family History Library. It was a lowly, dead-end job, re-shelving books and cleaning microfilm readers, so I didn’t have the same kind of experience you have, but I do remember before I began, hearing from an older sibling who had worked in the same position “the Church is true. The Corporation of the President is not.” And it was something I held onto all through the time I worked there. It bugged me greatly when people talked about me working for the Church, especially when they said it was nice that I worked for the Church, because I knew that I worked for the Corporation of the President of the Church etc. Keeping my perception of the wide gap between those two entities was hard sometimes, because so many others acted as if it wasn’t there. It became a personal iron rod, especially since I had some very frustrating times in that job. I don’t know if I want to go into that right now. But I have come to a realization of the way that the Church itself acts too – should I capitalize it here? A while ago, talking with another older sibling, who has been happily inactive for my whole adult life, I mentioned something about how as soon as any large institution is established, its main goal becomes self-preservation, and any express purpose that it is supposed to serve takes a firmly secondary priority. “You know,” said sibling replied, “churches are like that too.”
“I know,” I answered. How much of a big deal this is to this person I don’t know. To me it hasn’t been so much a big dissilusion to admit that the church acts like any other impersonal institution. It does cause me to regret the continued repetition of the phrase “the church is true,” which begs many questions and needs a lot of qualification in order to be really clear in its meaning. But maybe there’s some use to its vagueness: you can assign whatever meaning to it you want. It’s like saying the Book of Mormon is true: I don’t feel bound to accept a strict factuality of everything that has been officially claimed regarding its geography and chronology. The truth of it lies in what it teaches, as the truth of myths does. It’s very regrettable that so many people set up truth and myth as opposites, because myths can give us some of the most valuable truths, often better than bare fact. Reading William James and Carl Jung have helped strengthen my conviction of this.
I digress. In my life within the church I have heard several admissions that the church is not what saves us. I like to think that many of the leaders recognize this, even if they find it dangerous to emphasize too much in a world that they see as a spiritual war zone. It is clear to my view that many, many members still live according to the assumption that salvation is found only in and through the church, and keep their minds firmly closed against any sorts of questions that would lead to a better understanding of how human beings, and our institutions operate. They also close their minds against considering that even if the church was organized by diving intervention, it is still an earthbound institution and that fallen human psychology and sociology make up its heart and soul. We don’t have Jesus Himself sitting in an office in Salt Lake City making the decisions, and until that happens, even the most earnest, humble and enlightened vicar will still have imperfect reception. Even if Christ Himself were directing things personally, plenty would still go wrong getting passed down the chain of command, as long as we live according to the myth of a chain of command. When more of us do grow a more mature and fruitful tree of life in our own souls, there will be less need for commands, and reliance on institutions to pass orders down from superiors will deteriorate. I am satisfied that that is one of the most important – and so far, least realized – parts of Christ’s mission.
It may be true to say “the Church is perfect” if we’re talking about a spiritual ideal of the Church, but that has to go along with a recognition that that ideal has yet to be really incarnated here on the earth. And in the meantime it is a drag, isn’t it, to have to sit through hearing about the Church being true and about loving it – especially hearing that sing-songy “I know the Church is true” from children at the pulpit. Thank God my daughter is still too shy to get up and share her testimony. If she ever does I’ll do my damnedest to induce her to say something outside of that norm.
Riceandbeans wrote:It may be true to say “the Church is perfect” if we’re talking about a spiritual ideal of the Church, but that has to go along with a recognition that that ideal has yet to be really incarnated here on the earth.
I personally detest the use of the word perfect in any religious sense. If refering to the church or the gospel the only way this makes sense to me is if we apply the perfection to some mystical ideal that we can only hope to approximate in shadowy forms here on earth. By that same reasoning – I am perfect based on my divine origin and potential!!!
I don’t even like perfection applied to Jesus. Unfortunately our scriptures tend to paint us in a corner by saying that if He were not perfect – He would not have been able to perform the atonement. Is it not enough that he was half god, he had to be perfect too? This sometimes gets convoluted as we attempt to justify things like getting angry and violent with the money-changers in the temple.
I am much more able to parse the word truth and true in ways that make sense to me.
I don’t mind using the word perfect IF it means “complete, whole, fully developed” and IF we understand the Atonement “made us free” to pursue full development without the guilt we might otherwise feel for not being “complete, whole, fully developed – and IF we see that Jesus was “perfect” in that regard ONLY when he said, “It is finished,” died, and his mortal mission was complete. We tend to conflate “sinless” (not acting in opposition with one’s conscience) and “perfect” (complete, whole, fully developed)- and those two words mean very different things (and the differences are important, theologically and in practical terms).
Good point Ray. I want to see more of the “complete, whole, fully developed” dialogue in church. I bow before the parsing master! :clap:
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