Reformation of the Restoration, Ordain Women etc.

[Anonymous]

Not sure if you have all seen the official Church response to the Ordain Women movement and their request to gain access to the Priesthood session, here is the link:

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/church-asks-activist-group-to-reconsider-general-conference-protest-plans” class=”bbcode_url”>http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/church-asks-activist-group-to-reconsider-general-conference-protest-plans

This, along with a few threads I have been following lately has me wondering about what reforming the church would look like. I think the author of this letter makes a few points in this regard. She mentions that the lowering of the missionary age for sisters was a result of the input of faithful LDS sisters, not as a demand in non-negotiable terms. This, to me, is a testament that any sort of changes in the church will come from the faithful members who serve in it.

While many argue that the Church has, and continues to buckle under social pressure, i.e. banning polygamy, blacks and the priesthood, some methods of change are more effective than others. Regardless of what you think about women having the priesthood, I think we can have a good discussion as to OW’s methods v.s. other possible approaches. Such demonstrations, I think, are ineffective because they are combative and put the church in a corner. I just can’t imagine a scenario where the Bretheren would say, “Well, ok, if you insist.” But maybe I’m wrong.

Maybe someone more knowledgeable about religious history can correct me, but I don’t recall many examples of extreme reformers having much success within their organizations. People like Martin Luther, who is hailed as a great reformer, didn’t directly reform the Catholic church, he started a new sect, likewise with other protestant sects. The Catholic church has undergone some changes but would hardly call them reformations and I think they have been very gradual, much like the changes within our own church.

So, as StayLDSers, most of us with less than orthodox views, what kinds of things would we like to see be reformed? Why? And what are the best ways to bring it to pass? Are these changes even possible?

[Anonymous]

When did the church PR team start deciding what’s doctrine or not (see last sentence).

On the other hand… I appreciate it saying that the church will listen to constructive feedback.

I also think it’s a smart move that a woman signed it. A woman acting as the spokesperson for the Lord’s church and declaring doctrine. Prophetess Deborah would be proud.

Quote:

…The recent changes you have seen, most notably the lowering of the missionary age for sisters, serve as examples and were facilitated by the input of many extraordinary LDS women around the world.

Women in the Church, by a very large majority, do not share your advocacy for priesthood ordination for women and consider that position to be extreme. Declaring such an objective to be non-negotiable, as you have done, actually detracts from the helpful discussions that Church leaders have held as they seek to listen to the thoughts, concerns, and hopes of women inside and outside of Church leadership. Ordination of women to the priesthood is a matter of doctrine that is contrary to the Lord’s revealed organization for His Church.

What would I reform?

The belief that when the prophet speaks it’s as if God is speaking. That’s still taught in Gospel Principles.

The temple requirements. Make it more about a personal willingness to make commitments to serve each other and treat each other well.

[Anonymous]

Unknown wrote:

While many argue that the Church has, and continues to buckle under social pressure, i.e. banning polygamy, blacks and the priesthood, some methods of change are more effective than others. Regardless of what you think about women having the priesthood, I think we can have a good discussion as to OW’s methods v.s. other possible approaches. Such demonstrations, I think, are ineffective because they are combative and put the church in a corner. I just can’t imagine a scenario where the Bretheren would say, “Well, ok, if you insist.” But maybe I’m wrong.

I also believe demonstrations like that are ineffective. When attacked (and I view this as a form of attack) the natural response is to throw up defenses, it’s almost a reflex. No one is going to make a change when they feel like their standards are under attack.

Pride also prevents change in situations like this, appearances are very important. Changing anything in the short term would send a message that the church will change if you complain bitterly enough. That message cannot be sent. The church’s original position must be maintained if for no other reason than to avoid the appearance of capitulation to shifts in culture. The change must be seen as coming from god, for both the Q15 and the members. Hard to convince anyone of that via a protest when the spirit is described as a still small voice.

In my mind the demeanor of some protestors turn the argument away from women holding the priesthood and turn it toward why a particular group of people don’t posses the right spirit to hold the priesthood. In other words it’s not a gender that disqualifies some people from the priesthood it’s their attitude.

If you want to read some of the reaction to all of this there’s a FB post on the MormonNewsroom with over 1000 comments.

[Anonymous]

I also think this type of demonstration does nothing to further a cause and there are several reasons for that. I also believe the PR department is not making doctrine in the letter, I believe the PR department is doing what PR departments do – PR. That is, they are relating to the public that which the church believes. I do believe it is doctrine that only males are ordained to the priesthood, and me saying that makes it no more doctrine than the PR department saying it. It’s imply a statement of fact.

So, what would I like to see changed/reformed? Frankly, the priesthood is not one of them. Although I do see that women could certainly be treated more equally in the church, I also see progress there as mentioned in the letter, and I foresee more progress. I would like to see:

1. More emphasis on teaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ and less emphasis on other teachings (tithing, for example). I know that most things can be related to the gospel, but that’s not what I’m talking about. I’d like to see more actual teaching/preaching about Jesus and what Jesus taught and I’d like to see Jesus mentioned more than he currently is.

2. The church has become much more open, especially about history, over the past few years and I think this needs to continue and improve.

3. I’d like to see Sunday meetings revamped, shortening the time and perhaps even eliminating a meeting. I’d advocate for a two hour block with SM and SS, and hold PH/RS less frequently, perhaps monthly and perhaps on a day other than Sunday. I’d also advocate for fewer meetings/activities overall. Perhaps making the ward council meeting the most important meeting, giving it some actual administrative authority and taking over some of the responsibilities of the bishopric (like planning SM, for instance).

4. I’d also like to see the temple recommend questions revised, with less (or no) emphasis on the WoW and tithing. I realize these both indicate a level of commitment, but I also realize we can be committed without necessarily keeping these more open/visible commandments. IOW, it should be more spiritual than temporal.

5. I think the leadership of the church should emphasize their humanity more. That is, I believe they should be more open about the idea that they have faults just like everybody else; that they, too, have faced trials and might have questions; and that much of what they say is their opinion and understanding, not necessarily God speaking through them. Along with this (and #2), I believe the idea of infallibility of the prophets, and the 14 Fs, should be openly and actively refuted.

I have more, but that’s a good start. The real question is how to affect such changes, and honestly I think that it is going to have to be by having people who believe there is a need for reform in the position to encourage it happening. There need to be more Pres. Uchtdorf’s in positions such as his to advocate for the change. I do believe that even SPs can have influence on such change, however, and likewise there would need to be people in those positions to help.

I also believe that if the majority, or at least a significant minority, of members truly made their beliefs known it could affect a change. I agree with the letter that the majority of members probably do not want to see women ordained to the priesthood at this time. That could change over time, but a thing I see changing sooner than that is the idea of SSM – I do foresee a time in the not too distant future where a significant minority of members will have the compassion for those with SSA to realize that they should not be condemned to lives of solitude without romantic love and will be able to make those ideas known to the leadership in a constructive and positive way.

[Anonymous]

I don’t know. There comes a time when one just throws up their hands in frustration at not being heard.

I don’t blame the OW. This is not a new issue…. it has been a problem for two humdred years and the faithful have been unable to make much head way.

The church does change because of social pressure. The are many examples.

Luther got excommunicated…. so I don’t think he was all about talk and changing things from within as an obedient member. I think he reformed Christianity. I guess if the LDS has to excommunicate everyone who criticizes and wants reformation is the only way to get change than the LDS Church is in worse shape than I feared.

Personally, I think women should get the priesthood, and they should change the Saturday meeting name, to the general men’s meeting rather than the priesthood session.

Women have their meeting. Men have their meeting. … They both have the priesthood.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

[Anonymous]

A big part of me wants to make the point that women already have the Priesthood and can exercise it in lots of ways already. So, if I could “reform” anything right now in this regard, it would be to teach that openly and directly.

What women don’t have right now is the authority to perform and administer specific ordinances outside the temple. They have that authorization in the temple, so I don’t see it as a stretch of doctrine to extend it outside the temple, but I would be fine right now with recognizing they have the Priesthood already and articulating ways to exercise it that aren’t “merely” ordinal in nature.

I would reform the YSA and SA programs to remove the married couple who are required to attend. Adults don’t need chaperones, especially adults over 30. They aren’t children, and we need to treat them fully like adults.

I would allow mixed-gender presidencies in all organizations that are not limited to one sex.

I would have the sacrament be administered at the end of Sacrament Meeting, with the talks focused specifically on topics of worship so they “build” to the sacramental climax.

I would encourage the elimination and shortening of quite a few meetings – and the use of electronic communication of all sorts to accomplish this.

I would shift the primary focus of “ward activities” to community service – and look for those who need help the most desperately. No conversion agenda – just pure service for the sake of helping others.

Those are the things that jump to mind immediately.

[Anonymous]

Curtis wrote:

A big part of me wants to make the point that women already have the Priesthood and can exercise it in lots of ways already. So, if I could “reform” anything right now in this regard, it would be to teach that openly and directly.

What women don’t have right now is the authority to perform and administer specific ordinances outside the temple. They have that authorization in the temple, so I don’t see it as a stretch of doctrine to extend it outside the temple, but I would be fine right now with recognizing they have the Priesthood already and articulating ways to exercise it that aren’t “merely” ordinal in nature.

I would reform the YSA and SA programs to remove the married couple who are required to attend. Adults don’t need chaperones, especially adults over 30. They aren’t children, and we need to treat them fully like adults.

I would allow mixed-gender presidencies in all organizations that are not limited to one sex.

I would have the sacrament be administered at the end of Sacrament Meeting, with the talks focused specifically on topics of worship so they “build” to the sacramental climax.

I would encourage the elimination and shortening of quite a few meetings – and the use of electronic communication of all sorts to accomplish this.

I would shift the primary focus of “ward activities” to community service – and look for those who need help the most desperately. No conversion agenda – just pure service for the sake of helping others.

Those are the things that jump to mind immediately.

All those things have been on my mind, if course I don’t talk about them. But they are things I think about when I deconstruct and reconstruct as I watch events unfold.

I like this.

[Anonymous]

I am still outraged by black men being denied the priesthood. It sickens me to the stomach to think we had a racist policy.

I don’t feel the same way about women being denied it. Don’t get me wrong. I would welcome them getting it and, if asked, I see no reason why women shouldn’t have it. But, if I’m honest, I simply don’t see it in the same way. I wish I did and I wonder why I don’t. Why am I, apparently, still passively sexist but hate racism?

It saddens me to think that I am still part of the problem and a barrier when considering reform.

[Anonymous]

A few randomly selected wishes:

Have a two or three year-long church-wide (lessons, New Era articles, talks, etc.) abstention from the subject of girls’ dress and modesty. Just try it. Talk about anything else, everything else.

A new hymnal, or, alternatively, guidelines that strongly suggest we sing (excluding Sacrament hymns) no single hymn more than 2X a year in sacrament meeting. Sing songs of praise and gratitude to begin meetings, not the how-am-I-doing?/am-I-doing-enough? hymns.

Move General Conference OFF of Easter Sunday in years when it falls there. (2015, 2018, 2021….) Lead up to it with appropriate talks in the preceding weeks. Tell the scriptural story. Sing the few Easter hymns we have and commission a few more. Same with Christmas. Don’t have a sacrament meeting theme that month on family history, for Pete’s sake. Sing Christmas hymns all month.

These are just a few pretty superficial things. The things that really weigh on me I don’t have words for.

I’m chagrined at the way OW might unfold this year. People are saying a lot of unkind things to each other over at feministmormonhousewives. I have first-degree relatives participating, so the attacks on their character and intentions hit close to home. I’m sad at the contention.

http://www.feministmormonhousewives.org/2014/03/why-the-lds-churchs-statement-on-ordain-women-convinced-me-to-join-them-april-5/

[Anonymous]

Ya contention, something I actively avoid.

One side via ing for the way to live their life. The other side fir religious freedom on the right not to to see how certain people live.

Weird kind of fight, in essence control over ones life extends to control of others.

[Anonymous]

My first reaction was that I don’t hope to reform the church – i just try to navigate it the best I can.

But after reading some of the other responses I remember some of the things that I would change. Primary is my pet peeve. I would love to come up with some kind of mission statement for primary. Is it to help each child feel the love of God or to provide an atmosphere so that the kids would CHOOSE to be there? Then everything we do would need to contribute to the mission.

Memorizing AofF? nope. Primary program? nope. The incessant learning of more and more primary songs? nope.

Indoctrination on how to be a good Mormon is not a compelling reason for me.

I would like to start thinking outside the box to attempt to reach kids.

[Anonymous]

I don’t necessarily agree with OW, but ouch, talk about throwing fuel on the fire. Did the revelation which led to the restoration of the Priesthood specify that it was never to be given to women? No? Then let’s not act like that’s doctrinal.

Speaking of the Priesthood, one big change I would make is to remove all the duties & responsibilities of the PH that we have added on to those verses in D&C. You know what I mean. The D&C spells out pretty clearly what the actual duties of the PH are but there are so, so many things that are traditionally only done by PH holders (including, until recently, praying in General Conference). I believe the PH is a powerful force for good and we actually disrespect it when we make it just about tradition and administrative duties rather than treating it as the authority to use God’s power.

[Anonymous]

Unknown wrote:

what kinds of things would we like to see be reformed? Why? And what are the best ways to bring it to pass? Are these changes even possible?

I would like to see some of the following – even one of them would make a difference.

* Support gay marriage. If not support through temple marriages at least recognize the pain we cause gay members of the church and allow them to marry outside the church and still be active members.

* Fundamentally reorganize the administration of the church so that church planning meetings don’t take so much time.

* Structure the Young Women program so that it’s fundamentally equal to the Young Men / Scouting program. They don’t have to be identical but YW get less funding, time, and support from the church.

* Acknowledge publicly the doctrines that don’t have to be doctrines and which just turn people away. WoW, chastity (including modesty), tithing. I’m pretty sure the modern concepts for all three of these differs significantly than what Joseph and Brigham practiced.

[Anonymous]

That FMH thread makes my head hurt, it is so full of stupid. Honestly, I was incredibly shocked that the church took this stance. It makes us look so bad that I actually wondered if they were Olivia Poped. Is there someone on the inside who supports OW and convinced them this was the best move? Because if they had simply done nothing, the PH session ticket request would have gone nowhere and probably been forgotten. Not that OW would have disbanded. My biggest concern is that I have yet to meet a Mormon woman who isn’t a feminist at heart. Most won’t claim it, but most truly are when you actually talk to them about issues. Sexism and lack of female voice in the church are huge issues if we want to retain and convert women. Maybe we don’t care if we retain and convert women. Maybe the church will end up just for men.

[Anonymous]

So many issues so many problems for the church. I wonder if the leaders are beginning to realize the tough spot they have created for themselves. OW seems to be the latest issue that is pounding on the church. For me I wish women got the priesthood tomorrow. It may bring some sanity back to the church.

I am not sure I care much anymore about reforming the church. I just have a hard time getting excited about religion in general. It all seems so much wishful thinking to me anymore. But for the the reason of making things better for me and many others here are some items would change if I could

Away with garments. Only to be worn in the temple

Revamp the WofW to incorporate real health advice not mistaken notions of the 1800’s

Keep more tithing funds local to help the community you live in

Put an end to all the modesty rhetoric. The paranoia about sex instilled in the youth drives me nuts. Develop a real program for the youth based on information not fear.

Stop claiming modern day revelation. It assaults the mind to claim this when it never happens.

Start asking people what they might like to do at church and stop assigning jobs. It’s a volunteer organization after all.

More options for missions. Want to do service OK. Want to preach OK. Want to never go in the first place just as good.

I could go on but I won’t.

[Author]

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