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I told my DH recently that my biggest regret is resigning (being excommunicated) from the Church. Back in 1980, you could not send in a letter of resignation, but instead wrote a letter requesting excommunication. At that time, I was so discouraged with just about everything and anyone related to the LDS Church. As I’ve written in the past, moving to Salt Lake City was a spiritual disaster. DH told me he was surprised I joined him in leaving the Church. DH has since been re-baptized, although he rarely goes to Church.
For myself, I would like to be re-baptized. What prohibits me from being re-baptized is (1) I do not believe in paying tithing and (2) I do not believe in the WoW. I cannot fathom a Heavenly Father who would keep me from the waters of baptism because of these two issues.
So without being re-baptized, I am unable to fully participate at Church. This is why I have written in the past that I feel like I don’t fit in. No baptism … no becoming “one with the Saints.” Perhaps one day the miracle will happen.
I read these statements today (I don’t remember the source) and felt so alone:
Quote:“Therefore, when you are in the actual church, surrounded by other Mormons, you know that all these great people around you do not just have the same religious beliefs, but almost every aspect of their lives is a mirror of your own. That is comforting. It makes you feel that you are doing something right. It makes you feel a strong kinship for all those around you.”Thank you for providing this forum. I feel this is a safe haven for me to be open and honest.
Paying tithing isn’t a requirement to be baptized, as far as I know. But I could be wrong about this. I know it’s a requirement to go to the temple. As far as the WofW is concerned, I’m actually surprised as well that it’s a requirement to be baptized. I thought it was summed up quite well when I did a blog post a while back about the WofW and a good friend of mine had this to say:
“To me, there is always the letter of the law, and the spirit of the law, and this especially applies to things like the Word of Wisdom.So what is the spirit in which the Word of Wisdom was intended? Well, if we actually read the scripture, it’s not even a commandment (“To be sent greeting; not by commandment or constraint, but by revelation and the word of wisdom”).
In fact, it wasn’t even adhered to by most members (including General Authorities) until the end of the 19th century. When Joseph Smith sent missionaries out in the early days of the Church, he used to tell them specifically not to adhere to the WOW too strictly, as it would turn off investigators offering them tea, coffee, or a drink.
Joseph Smith drank smuggled wine in the Carthage jail on the night he was assassinated by the mob, and his close friend and fellow member, Porter Rockwell, opened a bar in Joseph Smith’s mansion house in Nauvoo (until Emma Smith got upset and told Joseph she didn’t like crowd it attracted).
In reading early Church history books, they will often include letters between General Authorities talking (as if in passing…you know, like it was no big deal) about having coffee, tea, or alcohol being served at various meetings.
In Truman G. Madsen’s talks about the Presidents of the Church, he mentions David O. McKay giving Joseph Fielding Smith a hard time because he was such a stickler on the WOW and refused to drink decaffeinated coffee.
Anyway,I think the real point of the WOW is just as it says, “Given for a principle with promise, adapted to the capacity of the weak and the weakest of all saints, who are or can be called saints”. In other words, you can never become a drunkard or an addict if you simply avoid something entirely, and we really don’t have a way of knowing if we are “weak” in terms of becoming addicts until we actually become an addict or a drunkard, right?
The real danger in these substances, I believe, is intoxication, addiction, and harm to our health. When we consume something like non-alcoholic beer, which is not intoxicating (doing the math, you’d have to drink 16 non-alcoholic beers at 0.5% alcohol to equal one regular beer which has about 8%)is not addicting, and is only harmful in that it is high in calories (which may be a health advantage if you have a low caloric intake).
Unfortunately, the interpretation of the Word of Wisdom seems to have evolved with time, from Mormon doctrine to Mormon dogma. I personally know members that eat meat at every meal, and overindulge in those foods most detrimental to one’s health, but will stop talking to an individual for such “moral outrages” like seeing someone walk into a Starbucks (“One must avoid the appearance of evil!” is the usual argument). Talk about missing the mark!”
I believe that missionaries do require new converts to live what they call the Word of Wisdom as a prerequisite for baptism. They don’t, of course, require that they live Section 89. Section 89 is mostly dietary. It can be argued that preservation of meat has changed since the revelation and that may be true.
What missionaries commonly refer to as the WoW is the 4 NO’s.
No tea
No alcohol
No coffee
No tobacco
and I believe that recently No illicit drugs has been added.
Yes, it’s true that Joseph Smith enjoyed an occasional beer or glass of wine. Brigham Young even recommended a shot of brandy for medicinal purposes.
You may find that how strict the authorities are on adherence to the 4 NO’s varies with region as well. I would think that it should be based on degree of adherence. In other words, a person who has a glass of wine once a week is by no means the same as a person who drinks a six-pack every day.
It would be nice if the Church would think of it that way but I understand why they don’t. There would be no way to control it and it could seem like an open ticket for members to start indulging in what would, for many, become addictions.
I’m sure that many people have their own interpretation of what compliance with the WoW is and have said that they are complying before baptism when … according to the Church’s interpretation, they weren’t. That would be between the person, their conscience and God, I would think.
I do hope that things work out for you though. You may change your mind about the tithing issue in the future but that wouldn’t keep you from becoming baptised anyway.
My opinion only…
Mileage may vary.
I don’t believe tithing is required to be baptized, but you are asked to be willing to pay tithing. Can you tell me why you are opposed to tithing? Also, what is it about the WoW that you have a problem with? I think the church can be very Pharisaical about the WoW, and I don’t believe any of the prohibitions are inherently wrong. I wouldn’t be surprised that when Christ comes, he tells us to start using wine for the sacrament. But, if you enjoy the fellowship of the church, it seems kind of strange that you would let these issues keep these issues from allowing yourself back in. Perhaps you can explain your disagreements in a little more detail so I can understand where you are coming from?
kalola, this is one area where my own opinion is definitely heterodox. I believe there should be one set of standards for temple attendance and a totally separate set of standards for baptism. I think the temple standards should be taught to all investigators (so they know what they will have to do to attend the temple in the future), but I think that any standards that do not lead to excommunication (or perhaps disfellowshipment) should not keep someone from being baptized. If a baptized member does not pay tithing and/or does not follow the Word of Wisdom, that member is not disciplined formally. (If that does happen somewhere, it is not through dictate of the CHI.) Therefore, if a baptized member can do that and stay in the Church, I believe someone should be able to do that and become a baptized member. To me, that’s a straightforward, simple comparison – but I understand why it’s hard for many to fathom. If I were in your shoes and wanted to rejoin in whatever degree of activity felt right to me, I personally would commit to pay tithing and follow the Word of Wisdom and see where I was 6-12 months from now. If, at that point, I wanted to continue to do so, I would; if not, I wouldn’t – but, at that point, I wouldn’t be excommunicated for not doing so and still could be as “active” in every other way that I wanted to be. I wouldn’t be able to attend the temple, but I still would be in the majority of the membership in that status.
😆 Having said that, this is a decision you need to make for yourself. Which do you want more? Are you digging in your heels and being proud and/or stubborn over this – or is this truly a hill on which you are willing to stake your flag and fight? It sounds like you are struggling to figure that out, and until you do . . .
Bless you.
Kalola wrote:I read these statements today (I don’t remember the source) and felt so alone:
Quote:“Therefore, when you are in the actual church, surrounded by other Mormons, you know that all these great people around you do not just have the same religious beliefs, but almost every aspect of their lives is a mirror of your own. That is comforting. It makes you feel that you are doing something right. It makes you feel a strong kinship for all those around you.”Thank you for providing this forum. I feel this is a safe haven for me to be open and honest.
Don’t make this quote bother you. IN CHURCH people are sometimes very superficial. There are great people BUT if you think no one struggles ( in what they believe to be the “Right way” to do things ) you might be wrong. ( Not that you do! Just saying .. ) You can feel a strong kinship in all sorts of organizations. The “Important” or “Real” relationship is bewtween yourself and God. If you need and enjoy the LDS community than it is definitely a plus! But .. For me I struggle with WOW, Tithing ( I pay it but that doesnt mean I don’t like it at times ) , garments … etc – Do I feel out of place? Yes .. But I just don’t believe in certain things anymore .. I don’t feel guilty .. But I do feel like I can’t relate to some members. Which is cool .. b/c there are plenty of great people I know and will come to know outside of the Mormon Box. AND if my member “friends” ever knew about how I really felt about some stuff I’m sure many would drop me like a fly .. consider me anti or weak – w/e.. Or maybe I’m wrong! The only thing comforting about that quote IMO is well nothing – It makes sense in a TBM way I guess.
BTW From what I remember in my interview they asked if I understood the WOW and tithing .. And I’m pretty sure they asked if I was willing to follow. I don’t like it , But it makes sense. If you want to join the Club .. Consider yourself Mormon .. Represent “The Church” , they want you to play by the rules. – After the deed, well there aren’t many check-ups. Yearly tithing – For those that pay tithing. With the WOW I guess only if you had extreme guilt or addiction etc..would you bring it up with a bishop.
Sorry you feel so down, I hope you figure things out.
I appreciate the sincere post. I hope I can convey my thoughts in the proper tone, not judgemental and not holier-than-thou…simply as my thoughts, FWIW. One of my favorite talks is from Elder Haight called “People to People”, Nov Ensign 1981. My focus in the church has alwasy been on the people, and love for people, and not on the letter of the law. If the church isn’t about bringing people to Christ, it is of no value to the human race. Elder Haight shared a story that stays with me always. I don’t know if you feel it applies to the conversation at hand, but it stuck me as such. He said,
Quote:Driving to the Los Angeles Airport with a busy radio executive, I learned that he and his wife, though born in the Church, had never participated. Their social life of parties and weekends for fun and escape dominated their lives.
After eight years of marriage and three children, they were becoming concerned about their lives but did nothing about it.
Different sets of home teachers came and went. A new home teacher—a true shepherd—came into their lives, and after a time this new home teacher committed this man to go to Church once. Brother Adamson said he would not give up smoking and drinking. He had made a firm resolve not to live the Word of Wisdom, and if he was not welcome in Church because of it, that was fine. The home teacher said, “You are welcome, and I will pick you up.”
The first Sunday Brother Adamson attended Church he waited for someone to move away from him because of the strong tobacco odor, but that didn’t happen. “They will ask me to pray or work in the Church,” he thought. That didn’t happen either.
The home teacher did not phone on Sunday mornings to give him a chance to make an excuse and back out but drove to his home and would say, “Are you ready?” This home teacher picked him up every Sunday for over a year.
The Adamsons began reading A Marvelous Work and a Wonder and found that the Church consisted of much more than just the Word of Wisdom, which he had heard so much about all his life (and because he didn’t live the Word of Wisdom, felt the Church had nothing to offer him).
This couple soon learned it is a Church of love, not a Church of fear. They learned of the mission of the Savior and of our Heavenly Father and of repentance. They became so proud of the Church they had been born into that the Word of Wisdom no longer was an important issue. He didn’t go through the pangs of quitting. It just happened. There were so many other principles of the gospel that now were so important in their lives.
He said, “I found myself working on our new chapel and then one day quietly telling the bishop, ‘I’m ready, now. You can call on me to pray.’ ”
Perhaps this is ideal, perhaps we don’t see this enough in the church, but I strongly believe this is the view I would like to hope for in the church. Any member wanting to come join the congregation and sincerely seek Christ and feast on His words should be welcome. Hopefully as people come and feel welcome, there is a desire to sacrafice and seek to live laws that can lift us from this world to a better, happier place. Line upon line, precept upon precept…not all at once or run faster than is needful.
A smoker who loves Christ and loves my family is welcome to home teach me in the church over a zealot who calls me to repentance.
It should be a gospel of love, not of fear. That is my hope, and I’m saddened too often I cannot see it in our church.
To bring it back to the topic…I believe from my understanding of days I did interviews, it is a requirement to ask if the person is willing to try to live the laws established to be baptized, but an understanding we all sin which is why we need Christ to help us if we can’t live it. And more importantly, requirements for baptism or the temple DO NOT EQUATE TO ANY REQUIREMENT TO JOIN THE CONGREGATION AND ATTEND CHURCH, WHERE ALL SHOULD BE WELCOMED IN LOVE. (not shouting that last part, just emphasis.)
Old-Timer wrote:Are you digging in your heels and being proud and/or stubborn over this – or is this truly a hill on which you are willing to stake your flag and fight? It sounds like you are struggling to figure that out, and until you do . . .
Bless you.
Ray, I will admit that I am quite rebellious, so perhaps I am being “stubborn.”
I was brought up in the Lutheran church where you were not required to tithe nor were you required to adhere to anything akin to the WoW. So tithing and the WoW are sticking points with me. What are the “spiritual” benefits of tithing and observing the WoW?
All of the responses I have received to my OP have given me much to ponder.
Thank you for helping me.
Malachi chapter 3 talks about tithing, so you might want to read the whole chapter. As for spiritual benefits of tithing, in verse 10 the Lord says, “prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that [there shall] not [be room] enough [to receive it].”Of course, the next verse seems to talk more about “physical” blessings, but verse 10 can be interpreted as a spiritual blessing, and ” [there shall] not [be room] enough [to receive it].”
D&C 64: 23, Behold, now it is called today until the coming of the Son of Man, and verily it is a day of sacrifice, and a day for the tithing of my people; for
he that is tithed shall not be burned at his coming.Some LDS people call tithing “fire insurance.” Not being burned at Jesus 2nd Coming can be considered a spiritual blessing, I think.
As for the WoW, you’re probably aware of the physical blessings of “run and not be weary” etc, but there are a few spiritual blessings too. Section 89, Verse 19 says,
“And shall find wisdom and great treasures of knowledge, even hidden treasures;”I think these treasures of knowledge, even hidden treasures should be considered spiritual insights and blessings. mormonheretic wrote:Malachi chapter 3 talks about tithing, so you might want to read the whole chapter. As for spiritual benefits of tithing, in verse 10 the Lord says,
“prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that [there shall] not [be room] enough [to receive it].”Of course, the next verse seems to talk more about “physical” blessings, but verse 10 can be interpreted as a spiritual blessing, and ” [there shall] not [be room] enough [to receive it].”
D&C 64: 23, Behold, now it is called today until the coming of the Son of Man, and verily it is a day of sacrifice, and a day for the tithing of my people; for
he that is tithed shall not be burned at his coming.Some LDS people call tithing “fire insurance.” Not being burned at Jesus 2nd Coming can be considered a spiritual blessing, I think.
As for the WoW, you’re probably aware of the physical blessings of “run and not be weary” etc, but there are a few spiritual blessings too. Section 89, Verse 19 says,
“And shall find wisdom and great treasures of knowledge, even hidden treasures;”I think these treasures of knowledge, even hidden treasures should be considered spiritual insights and blessings. Thank you for the scripture references. I had forgotten D&C Section 89, Verse 19.
Kalola, #3 below is a bit “squishy” and anecdotal, but it is my real experience, so take it fwiw: 1) I don’t buy the “tithing as fire insurance” argument. I understand why it had to be said when the Church had to start emphasizing it in the beginning, but I think we are beyond that now. I see it as “kingdom insurance” – meaning it makes the meetinghouses and temples and heavily subsidized college education and elimination of the local building fund contributions we enjoy in the Church possible. It’s my “stock” in the tangible benefits of the organization.
2) One of the greatest benefits for me, on a practical level, of paying tithing (and fast offerings) has been that I have felt more at peace than I otherwise would have on three separate occasions when my employment situation left me needing assistance from the Church. (One of the reasons I’m changing careers, frankly, and getting into a more stable field. *sigh* – Actually, this puts me where I’ve wanted to be for some time – in college admissions.) I had paid faithfully into “the system” for years, so, as hard as it was to ask for help, I was able to be at peace when I had to do so.
3) As an educator and educational technology salesman throughout the Eastern US for most of the last 12 years, I have interacted literally with thousands of educators at all levels of the public school systems in this country. Invariably, when my religion comes up with fellow educators, the response is fascinating. Even those who loathe our doctrine and theology and church often comment on how bright and intelligent and insightful Mormon students are. In my own district in Ohio, the percent of almost ALL “elite” programs (except sports) are disproportionately represented by Mormon kids. If there are 10 Mormon students at the high school, for example, at least three of them will be in the top 5% academically – and at least one of them will be in the elite (nationally competitive) show choir – and at least two of them will be in the selective bands programs – and at least half of them will be competing for top honors in something. It’s uncanny and longitudinal.
I believe personally that this is the result of generational living of the Word of Wisdom. It doesn’t show up as prominently in the first generation of convert kids, but after multiple generations of non-drinking, non-smoking, non-drug-using, non-STD-having, non-constantly-stimulated-by-large-quantities-of-caffeine, etc. – the difference is stark. Again, I’ve seen that over and over and over as I’ve traveled the Eastern US – so I believe in the long-term benefits of following the Word of Wisdom.
I’ve just gotta comment… We’re taught throughout the scriptures not to “tempt God”.
This is the one thing where He asks us to “bring it on”.
“Prove me…”
It’s not so convincing if you have a fair amont of disposable income but for those who don’t (I’ve been there) it IS a challenge. I can honestly say that for those I know that have put it to the test….myself included…..God comes through with his part of the bargain and more.
My opinion only …
Mileage may vary…
(but I’m guessing not much)
Have a great weekend everyone.
Oops…I was typing while your were posting Ray…sorry
No problem, Bruce. It happens to me all the time – given the average length of my comments. 🙄 Old-Timer wrote:I believe personally that this is the result of generational living of the Word of Wisdom. It doesn’t show up as prominently in the first generation of convert kids, but after multiple generations of non-drinking, non-smoking, non-drug-using, non-STD-having, non-constantly-stimulated-by-large-quantities-of-caffeine, etc. – the difference is stark. Again, I’ve seen that over and over and over as I’ve traveled the Eastern US – so I believe in the long-term benefits of following the Word of Wisdom.
Hmmm, sounds a bit like evolution if you ask me. Maybe the Mormon lifestyle, WoW, LoC, and sacrificing money for a cause greater than yourself produces people who can reproduce and carry on their “mutations.” Just a thought.Heber13 wrote:It should be a gospel of love, not of fear. That is my hope, and I’m saddened too often I cannot see it in our church.
I’m with you all the way on this Heber.I’d like to pick apart this statement a bit.
Quote:“Therefore, when you are in the actual church, surrounded by other Mormons, you know that all these great people around you do not just have the same religious beliefs,
Hmm, maybe I should resign then since I don’t really share all the same religious beliefs.
Quote:but almost every aspect of their lives is a mirror of your own. That is comforting. It makes you feel that you are doing something right.
Comforting? Actually, this scares the living heck out of me personally!!! I can’t think of may things worse than looking around me and seeing everyone else is the same and a “mirror image” of my own life. Not just bad for me personally, but bad for society and the world as a whole.
Quote:It makes you feel a strong kinship for all those around you.”
Actually, no it doesn’t. It makes me feel like I’m in the twilight zone. Imuchprefer a situation where everyone is different and I can learn from their experience and feel a kinship with them by analyzing the transcendent God that a certain individual is emanating. Clearly this quote wasn’t meant for me. 
Also, as to the issue, no you don’t have to be paying tithing, but generally the missionaries have committed you to living it after you’re baptized (at least as of 2001 when I served my mission). As for WoW, it just depends. My mission president required that an individual be “living” (that is currently living, as of the time of the interview) the WoW. What happened last month, last week, or yesterday is quite irrelevant (as long as the desire to remain clean in this regard is there). I tend to agree.
jmb275 wrote:Old-Timer wrote:I believe personally that this is the result of generational living of the Word of Wisdom. It doesn’t show up as prominently in the first generation of convert kids, but after multiple generations of non-drinking, non-smoking, non-drug-using, non-STD-having, non-constantly-stimulated-by-large-quantities-of-caffeine, etc. – the difference is stark. Again, I’ve seen that over and over and over as I’ve traveled the Eastern US – so I believe in the long-term benefits of following the Word of Wisdom.
Hmmm, sounds a bit like evolution if you ask me. Maybe the Mormon lifestyle, WoW, LoC, and sacrificing money for a cause greater than yourself produces people who can reproduce and carry on their “mutations.” Just a thought.Heber13 wrote:It should be a gospel of love, not of fear. That is my hope, and I’m saddened too often I cannot see it in our church.
I’m with you all the way on this Heber.I’d like to pick apart this statement a bit.
Quote:“Therefore, when you are in the actual church, surrounded by other Mormons, you know that all these great people around you do not just have the same religious beliefs,
Hmm, maybe I should resign then since I don’t really share all the same religious beliefs.
Quote:but almost every aspect of their lives is a mirror of your own. That is comforting. It makes you feel that you are doing something right.
Comforting? Actually, this scares the living heck out of me personally!!! I can’t think of may things worse than looking around me and seeing everyone else is the same and a “mirror image” of my own life. Not just bad for me personally, but bad for society and the world as a whole.
Quote:It makes you feel a strong kinship for all those around you.”
Actually, no it doesn’t. It makes me feel like I’m in the twilight zone. Imuchprefer a situation where everyone is different and I can learn from their experience and feel a kinship with them by analyzing the transcendent God that a certain individual is emanating. Clearly this quote wasn’t meant for me. Also, as to the issue, no you don’t have to be paying tithing, but generally the missionaries have committed you to living it after you’re baptized (at least as of 2001 when I served my mission). As for WoW, it just depends. My mission president required that an individual be “living” (that is currently living, as of the time of the interview) the WoW. What happened last month, last week, or yesterday is quite irrelevant (as long as the desire to remain clean in this regard is there). I tend to agree.
I second again with the mirror image sentence. That whole quote in the OP isn’t very comforting – You can’t force yourself to “BE like” the person ( that wrote that quote ) or feel that way. It is wonderful for people to try to do the best with what they know to be good .. and great to feel like your in it “together” BUT idk people are different .. I don’t like that quote , as you can tell it irritates me – Probably b/c I’m jealous of not being able to think that simply anymore …I’ve come to notice some things are toxic to me .. weather it is doctrine, quotes, words – Some things just make me feel so left out and like I will never live up or feel “The Right” way about something – Anything! This is a toxic quote to me b/c I’m just not at that place anymore – AND trying to jump “back” and understand it makes me negitive. – So quote = toxic … Ok I’m done
Actually I wanted to edit this to add one of my main “Toxic” problems was MADB And I’m proud to say I don’t read posts there anymore
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