Religion Trauma Syndrome?

[Anonymous]

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How do you go through the endowment and sealing without feeling like God really hates His daughters?

The temple has changed many times since its inception, and it will continue to change and progress. Personally, I’m quite certain that sexism is man-made. I guess to put it another way, if God is as sexist as the temple, forget that. Not worth going to the Celestial Kingdom.

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Or without thinking we are useless on our own or are only to support men?

Are there some church leaders and members who see it this way? Sure.

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I think men and women should be supporting and loving one another equally instead of fighting some strange divine power-struggle. I personally see it as 50/50 in a marriage where the participants are equal partners.

On the upside, from what I can see most members are much more egalitarian in practice than in language. When I look at the average Mormon marriage, they are far more equal than your average conservative Christian couple from the SBC or the evangelicals.

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What have you done to combat those negative feelings and attitudes?

My own marriage is very equal.

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And how do you make promises that you may not necessarily agree with?

This is a tough one. I don’t have any easy answers. I really don’t like to attend given the sexist differences.

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Would God see me as less of a person for lying in the temple just to get through the ceremonies?

I’m not sure I would agree that you are called upon to lie exactly, but the language is unequal and the promises women are given are unequal. It’s problematic, though. I wouldn’t dare judge any women who felt uncomfortable with the language as it stands.

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I would like to be blessed and feel closer to God again, but I can’t make promises that hurt me to the very core and act like it is ok. I think God would see through that, and it doesn’t seem right to purposefully lie to Him.

I can’t fathom any way that God would not agree that sexist differences are hurtful; therefore, I wouldn’t be worried about God judging you. Again, no easy answers here. Just understanding and empathy.

Now, on the upside, although for people of younger generations, the sexism is still a huge and valid issue, for older generations, the temple is downright progressive in its elevation and equality of women. This I believe.

[Anonymous]

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N’oublie Pas wrote: “I know I will need to go through the endowment and sealing process at the temple one day. My family would not permit me to get married somewhere else, so that is not an option for me. Over the years, I have come to realize how sexist some of the practices are, and I personally don’t believe a loving and caring God could send such mixed messages. It’s so confusing to reconcile.”

As an adult child, you get to make your own decisions — with an attempt to be gracious and inclusive. But in the end, the decisions get to be yours. It is your life. Be fearless, but kind.

It sounds like you know what you want to do, but you are afraid of the social and familial repercussions. As the years have passed and my siblings have brought various dramas to the family, I have been surprised at the things parents and grandparents have handled. Families are more durable than you would think.

[Anonymous]

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How do you go through the endowment and sealing without feeling like God really hates His daughters?

By realizing that nothing in the temple was whispered in anyone’s ear by God himself and/or herself. It’s all symbolic (as many leaders have said, including Boyd K. Packer, who isn’t exactly liberal ), and it’s all created by people with blind spots and biases. Also, as Hawk said, by realizing that it has changed, dramatically, over time and will continue to change. I have seen important, good, major changes in my own lifetime – and I would classify only one of those changes as not extremely positive.

Also, by looking at the exact wording of your question. Even if someone attributes the endowment as having been revealed directly, word-for-word, from God, there is no “hate” in it. Absolutely, there is some sexism and condescension, but there is no hate. There also is an incredible amount of equality – and it’s easy to miss that by focusing exclusively on the differences. That might seem nit-picky to some, but it is truly important to understand – since sexism and condescension are cultural, and culture changes all the time, albeit often more slowly than we would like.

[Anonymous]

Hello, NOP. All I can say to your original post is that I have felt the Holy Ghost many times, but that when it comes to relationships, I have not been given much inspiration from that direction. I suspect the Holy Ghost doesn’t deal with romance.

[Anonymous]

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How do you go through the endowment and sealing without feeling like God really hates His daughters?

First off, I don’t think it is as bad as it looks. There is a lot of stuff in the temple which is male-dominated, but on the positive side, women take part in all temple rituals (I believe they play a more important part in the second anointing), and the only places a woman can’t really go as a patron in the temple are the male changing rooms, which is fair enough.

[Anonymous]

Silent Dawning:

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“I also think the “my ways are not your ways” phrase is there to get cooperation from people who may not agree with what a leader is saying — without giving defensible reasons.”

I agree completely. Maybe this is not the right word, but I can’t think of another… when leaders say phrases such as those about tough issues, it makes me feel more or less like I’m in a “cult” versus trying to learn about God. It don’t mean this in any offensive way, but that’s the best way I can describe what I feel. I apologize for any offense to any StayLDS members.

Thank you for your input.

Hawkgrrl:

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“Personally, I’m quite certain that sexism is man-made. I guess to put it another way, if God is as sexist as the temple, forget that. Not worth going to the Celestial Kingdom.”

I agree. I would rather be alone and serving as a single angel than be in a sexist marriage. It would hurt too badly, but then again, so would never being with my companion because I couldn’t agree. This is a very hard one to think through for me. Both options, I feel, I would lose if God is really as sexist as He appears in the temple. I sure hope those elements are man-made, because otherwise, I cannot personally reconcile them. I would be miserable in heaven in either of those positions, which would make it a very dreary heaven for me. Most marriages I see in the church are equal, so it bothers me that there is that kind of language in the temple when in reality, it seems the practice is much different. I just really really hope marriage in heaven doesn’t significantly alter to fit the temple’s language, or that I would be forced to participate in polygamy. That keeps me awake at night.

“The language is unequal and the promises women are given are unequal.”

That is what bothers me so much. And I don’t personally see that as a great start to a equal companionship. Maybe I’m overthinking it. And I’m glad that the temple has been changing, yet that still creates the cognitive dissonance of why it needed to change in the first place… I would like to see this as a “line upon line” type of thing versus a “well, we gotta change it to fit today’s standards…” thus making it feel less like a God-given covenant.

I don’t know. I’ve been mixed up on this for years. And I really appreciate your thoughts. Thank you.

Amateurparent:

I really really hope my family is as durable as you have said. Thank you for your input. And even when I “come out” to my family that I can no longer traditionally believe, I do want to be gracious, inclusive, and kind.

Old-Timer:

I really really would like to see it more symbolically versus literally, since literally is a little difficult for me to swallow. Do you have any links to where StayLDS members have discussed the symbolism they see in the temple to help them combat some of the difficult messages? I would really appreciate your help.

SamBee:

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“I suspect the Holy Ghost doesn’t deal with romance.”

Well, it sure would make sense! 😆 😆

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“On the positive side, women take part in all temple rituals. I believe they play a more important part in the second anointing.”

That is something that I find helpful, and from what I have heard/read about the second anointing, it does help me reconcile the temple a little bit better.

Thank you for your input.

[Anonymous]

N’oublie Pas wrote:

Silent Dawning:

“I also think the “my ways are not your ways” phrase is there to get cooperation from people who may not agree with what a leader is saying — without giving defensible reasons.”

I agree completely. Maybe this is not the right word, but I can’t think of another… when leaders say phrases such as those about tough issues, it makes me feel more or less like I’m in a “cult” versus trying to learn about God. It don’t mean this in any offensive way, but that’s the best way I can describe what I feel. I apologize for any offense to any StayLDS members.

I agree. I know you don’t consider us a cult in the Jim Jones/People’s Temple sense (where he would prevent people from leaving), or the Charles Manson sense, but I think that in any context, you have to be careful of situations where people encourage you to behave in a certain way due to non-rational reasons. The My Ways are Not Your Ways approach, the “blind obedience” approach. The “I was led by the Spirit, not knowing beforehand the things I should do” — all these things are red flags in my view. I may venture into risky situations, recognizing it is exploratory, but it’s because there is some kind of foundational reason, or combination of reason and intuition that guides me. I would not go against my conscience in order to simply comply….that way lies the MMM.

[Anonymous]

If you want to read things about temple symbolism, I would search for the word “symbolism” in the search box at the top, right of the page. It will give you just over 600 references, but it probably will be worth checking out many of them. Not all of them will be be relevant, but there are some good threads and comments about the general issue.

If you search for “temple+symbolism”, you will get about 250 references, so you might want to start there.

[Anonymous]

Also, if you’re looking for a quick easy read about some of the symbolism that you encounter in the temple, Sacred Symbols by Alonzo Gaskill is a good one. It takes a solely LDS perspective, but it talks about a lot of the symbolism that you’ll encounter in the temple (Adam/Eve story, rituals, clothing, etc.), so it might help eliminate some of the shock factor if you’re more familiar with what’s coming.

[Anonymous]

N’oublie Pas wrote:

I would be miserable in heaven in either of those positions, which would make it a very dreary heaven for me. Most marriages I see in the church are equal, so it bothers me that there is that kind of language in the temple when in reality, it seems the practice is much different. I just really really hope marriage in heaven doesn’t significantly alter to fit the temple’s language, or that I would be forced to participate in polygamy. That keeps me awake at night.

Just so you know, from a guy’s perspective…unequal marriage sounds awful to me as well. It doesn’t feel right to me, and I have a hard time making sense of that in the eternities. I just can’t fathom it.

Actually, I don’t think we really know much of specifics of the eternities, when you really think of it. So…you don’t have to subscribe to the one theory that is out there that polygamy is eternal. While I can see why some people can’t let go of what past prophets have said and so their solution is to project into the unknown future of the afterlife, it is literally a stab in the dark at what it might be…but there are way better theories that feel right to me.

Polygamy, or that the man is in charge in the relationship, or that woman can’t go directly to God for their access to divinity, just don’t make sense to me. I think many men in the church feel that same way. But it doesn’t minimize what it must feel like for you as a woman. I can’t imagine.

[Anonymous]

SilentDawning:

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” The “I was led by the Spirit, not knowing beforehand the things I should do” — all these things are red flags in my view.”

I agree completely. Thank you for your perspective. And personally, I don’t think God would like us to do what He believes is best for us just because of “blind obedience.” It doesn’t seem authentic and that we are really putting our thought and heart into it.

Old-Timer:

Thank you! I will look into that.

Holy Cow:

Thank you for the book suggestion!

Heber13:

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“Just so you know, from a guy’s perspective…unequal marriage sounds awful to me as well. It doesn’t feel right to me, and I have a hard time making sense of that in the eternities. I just can’t fathom it.”

That was really really comforting to hear. Thank you. And it’s never made sense to me that I couldn’t go directly to God. Isn’t that what we do in our personal prayers anyway? I mean, everyone including myself makes many mistakes, so I wouldn’t want to put my trust “in the flesh,” so to speak. I’m not meaning that in a minimizing way to anyone, of course. But it would be so comforting to hear that I have equal access to God in the temple versus needing to go through someone, even if it is someone who I care for and love very much…

[Anonymous]

SamBee wrote:

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How do you go through the endowment and sealing without feeling like God really hates His daughters?

First off, I don’t think it is as bad as it looks. There is a lot of stuff in the temple which is male-dominated, but on the positive side, women take part in all temple rituals (I believe they play a more important part in the second anointing), and the only places a woman can’t really go as a patron in the temple are the male changing rooms, which is fair enough.

Another thing is: the initiatory work for the Sisters is done by other Sisters. There was a time that I thought it was performed the male Priesthood. I think the Sisters have more power then we give them credit for. (or, I give them credit for.)

[Anonymous]

Finding out about the second anointing only deepened my temple crisis.

Given our polygamous past and the awful quotable quotes from our past leaders, it doesn’t work for me to talk about the temple’s symbolism, words not having their plain meaning, sexism and condescension not being actual hate, etc. I think the temple can be reasonably taken as an example of old-school male chauvinism, even though it had – particularly for its time – some new and expansive ideas.

That was then; this is now. It needs to change. If not, I think a lot of women will just quit going. The words women hear in the temple matter. I really want to know. Do our leaders think these words are music to a modern woman’s ears?

I don’t think most LDS men are comfortable with the temple wording when they take notice of it.

[Anonymous]

Ann wrote:

The words women hear in the temple matter. I really want to know. Do our leaders think these words are music to a modern woman’s ears? I don’t think most LDS men are comfortable with the temple wording when they take notice of it.

I’m forced to conclude: 1) the men in charge don’t listen to it from a woman’s perspective (and why would they when most women ignore it), 2) there are enough leaders who believe life should be misery who think women should just suck it up, 3) there are some who misguidedly think polygamy is eternal, 4) they think only feminists are bothered by it and that the church would be better off without them. I’m guessing all 4 apply partly.

[Anonymous]

Most people who don’t take notice of the wording aren’t bothered by it, and many write off the wording as not relevant today, since they persoanlly have great, equal marriages. I honestly don’t think any of the top leadership don’t care. They seem to be trying to change things in many ways to give women more voice in the Church.

I think the issue is one or both of the following:

1) They simply don’t understand the depth of disconnect and discomfort felt by many women, since they personally don’t see the same implications in the wording;

2) They see the enormity and difficulty of making wholesale changes to something so many members view as practically inerrant and are making incremental changes as quickly as they feel the root can handle it, without touching initially the words themselves.

Many things have been removed from the endowment over time, but it is easier to remove something than to make changes to something like the script itself – which is what I think would be best. For example, it is easier to make Eve more physically and emotionally active and to portray more involvement and a more central, influential, deciding role in that way (which the new films do very obviously) than to give her new lines or change the script to include her more directly. I actually believe the latter approach will be taken in the future, and I wish I believed it would be sooner than I think it will be.

That doesn’t help some people now, but I really do believe it, based on the totality of what I have seen with the current FP.

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