Religion Trauma Syndrome?

[Anonymous]

Hi NP, and welcome! I feel like you are a younger version of myself, and I wish I had your wisdom and foresight. I think you are very wise to be thinking deeply about these issues now as you’re looking forward to building your life.

As a woman, I will say that the issues in the temple definitely spurred my FC. Unlike you, I didn’t know about anything ahead of time, and although I noticed a few little discrepancies when I first attended, it wasn’t until 15 years of faithful attendance that the differences between men and women were suddenly glaringly obvious. And once you notice, you can’t un-notice. Although it’s true that the word “hate” is never spoken, I can certainly echo that feeling. I have left the temple, where I went with the explicit desire to gain some peace and understanding, feeling completely confused and unworthy. While I am nowhere near reconciled in my thoughts about this, I must conclude that this is division is man-made, and that the God I worship loves me as fully and equally as he does my husband and sons. Otherwise, like Hawk said, it’s not worth it. The last time I attended, I felt very emotionally manipulated, so that didn’t really help the situation. I wish I had some super helpful advice, but I’m just not there.

Regarding your family, oh, I can relate!! Every day, multiple times a day, I repeat the mantra: “I am the captain of my own ship” (quoting SD, I think), but I still feel very much under the control of my family. One of these days, I’ll have the courage to tell my dad that I just don’t agree with him and that my exemplary life is not what he thinks it is, and I’ll feel his disappointment and perhaps fury, and it will hurt. And then we’ll move forward. It sounds great writing it out! I guess what I’m saying is that I completely understand the overwhelming need to conform to their wishes and not let anyone down. This is your life, though. I feel like you really will feel the freedom and ability to pursue your true spiritual path when you allow yourself to make decisions based on what you feel is right. Hang in there!

[Anonymous]

Ann wrote:

I don’t think most LDS men are comfortable with the temple wording when they take notice of it.

I can tell you some do!

[Anonymous]

LookingHard wrote:

Ann wrote:

I don’t think most LDS men are comfortable with the temple wording when they take notice of it.

I can tell you some do!

That is good to see in print. I want to say, Please go tell someone. Because there’sno one I can tell. There’s no appropriate place and time in mainstream Mormonism to say anything. And apparently the thousands of women on the internet expressing deep and long-standing problems with sexism in the temple – with the words said there – are spitting in the wind. It’s sad that we have to ask men to put this forward for us, but I guess that’s the way it goes.

RayDegraw wrote:

Most people who don’t take notice of the wording aren’t bothered by it, and many write off the wording as not relevant today, since they personally have great, equal marriages. I honestly don’t think any of the top leadership don’t care. They seem to be trying to change things in many ways to give women more voice in the Church.

I have a great, equal marriage. Maybe that’s part of why the temple is now hitting me like a ton of bricks. (Although I have to admit it was a long time coming.) I agree that there are good changes afoot.

Quote:

1) They simply don’t understand the depth of disconnect and discomfort felt by many women, since they personally don’t see the same implications in the wording;

What is really so hard about seeing it from a woman’s perspective? Most men, when they become aware or sensitized to it, are immediately taken aback by the inequity of it all. It’s pretty easy to see why many women would essentially “give up” on leaders who are so unseeing.

Quote:

They see the enormity and difficulty of making wholesale changes to something so many members view as practically inerrant and are making incremental changes as quickly as they feel the root can handle it, without touching initially the words themselves.

I was more optimistic about this being true before the polygamy essays. They seem like a doubling-down and digging-in for the long haul. There are too many things that could easily change. Why couldn’t the veiling be done away with? That’s not in the meat of the script. I don’t think anyone would accuse them of caving to feminists.

Quote:

Many things have been removed from the endowment over time, but it is easier to remove something than to make changes to something like the script itself – which is what I think would be best. For example, it is easier to make Eve more physically and emotionally active and to portray more involvement and a more central, influential, deciding role in that way (which the new films do very obviously) than to give her new lines or change the script to include her more directly. I actually believe the latter approach will be taken in the future, and I wish I believed it would be sooner than I think it will be.

I understand what they were aiming for there, and it is a good thing, but it’s just not enough. I’m afraid they won’t change it until after the survey (ala the one that resulted in removing the penalties) to find out why so many women under age 40 have stopped going to the temple. The “new” Eve is a more expressive and active participant, but that’s what makes the words that come out of her mouth all the more inexplicable. To be fair, these leaders inherited a script from people who inherited Genesis, but we’re the ones who talk about the restoration being ongoing and the beauty of an open canon.

[Anonymous]

hawkgrrrl wrote:

I’m forced to conclude: 1) the men in charge don’t listen to it from a woman’s perspective (and why would they when most women ignore it), 2) there are enough leaders who believe life should be misery who think women should just suck it up, 3) there are some who misguidedly think polygamy is eternal, 4) they think only feminists are bothered by it and that the church would be better off without them. I’m guessing all 4 apply partly.

Not a lot of good news here. The only one I can influence is the first. And that’s where I struggle with my daughters; they will ignore more and less based, to some extent, what I ignore. They’re their own people, but I know they look to me in this area. Just saying, “Yeah, I hope it’ll change someday. [Read here, probably not in your lifetime at this pace.] Focus on the good stuff,” seems a little weak anymore.

[Anonymous]

N’oublie Pas wrote:

That is something that I find helpful, and from what I have heard/read about the second anointing, it does help me reconcile the temple a little bit better.

Thank you for your input.

No problemo. My take on the temple, and women’s role in it, is that it is certainly reformable, and not completely unsalvagable. Men and women are always going to have slightly different robes, due to their body shapes, but whether skirts will continue (not giving too much away here 😆 ) is another matter.

Again (and not giving too much away here), I think the bit which sticks in the craw most is about “husbands”. (I think you know what I am referring to).

It’s definitely not ideal just now, but it is improving. In my short time in the church, I’ve noticed that Eve’s role in the temple film is much more nuanced than it used to be, although obviously the words are the same. IMHO, the endowment, with a few tweaks, could be reformed far more easily than our male-dominated ward/branch/stake structure.

[Anonymous]

NP,

Joni started a great thread a year and a half ago that would probably be worthwhile for you to read. There is a lot of great discussion there of the temple angst, evolution of the rite, thoughts on how to reconcile it, etc:

http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5054

[Anonymous]

hawkgrrrl wrote:

I’m forced to conclude: 1) the men in charge don’t listen to it from a woman’s perspective (and why would they when most women ignore it), 2) there are enough leaders who believe life should be misery who think women should just suck it up, 3) there are some who misguidedly think polygamy is eternal, 4) they think only feminists are bothered by it and that the church would be better off without them. I’m guessing all 4 apply partly.

I have also concluded it was created and worded back during a culture when it was pretty common for men and women to think in certain ways, different from our current environment, less bothered by the way it is in the temple ceremony. They were ignorant to how it sounded, and patient to accept that it didn’t intentionally seek to cause harm. And people did “suck it up and deal with it”.

And the problem with mormonism is that the D&C and early church revelations like the temple are taken literally from the mouth of God so there is more pressure to have the individual deal with it internally than to reword it more politically correct for our time. We are slow to change.

But temple ceremonies have been changed several times…it disappoints me they are so slow to address this inequality issue that lingers from a past generation of men who were ignorant to it.

I believe it will change…I wish it would happen right now.

[Anonymous]

Thank you everyone for your helpful links, advice, and compassion. It has really helped frame a more positive frame of mind for me, so I can at least feel comfortable in my own skin again. Thank you!

So after talking to my partner, these are the conclusions we both agreed upon. They may not be right for everyone, but they feel right for us and I feel some peace about having to get through the temple eventually…

1. The temple will be more a less a “one and done” experience for me, or at least until the wording/practice has changed. At this point in my spirituality, I am a “beginning pianist.” Being asked to work on “Rachmaninoff” is not exactly going to help me become better. Since Christ is the Master Teacher, surely He knows that a beginning student such as myself would become frustrated and quit if I was forced to work/learn at the pace that is not appropriate for me. I can always revisit “Rachmaninoff” level material in the future, but I need to learn how to “read the music” first. Stressfully reconciling the temple or walking out with hatred and bitterness towards myself, God, and my companion is not going to help me out. It’s a losing situation for all of us. And I personally can’t figure out how to reconcile why the words are the way they are if it is 100% God’s. I firmly believe they are cultural/a human mistake, especially considering how much the wording and processes have changed over the years (which brings me hope!). I am hoping we will get to a place where the wordings no longer cause contention and confusion for people who are genuinely trying their best to find God. It doesn’t mean it’s that way for everyone, but that is simply how my partner and I see it. I personally believe in time, we will see inclusion for everyone and that everyone will walk out of the temple without questioning themselves and their standing with God. Everyone could find peace and closeness if they desired to – which isn’t that why we go there in the first place? Maybe I’m being young and naive.

2. I cannot, in good conscience, make the promises exactly as worded. I know I wouldn’t be able to keep them, and God knows that too. I don’t want to lie to Him. Instead, I will make my own personal promises between myself and God that I know I can actually keep. I can absolutely promise to love, cherish, and be loyal my companion. I can absolutely promise I will do my best to obey God (and obey only Him!) and do what is right. I can absolutely promise to do my best to serve my fellow man and to see the potential in others. I can absolutely promise to love people despite their personal sins and to love them where they are at. I can promise to be respectful and reverent around garments, but I cannot promise to wear them 24/7 as they will remind me of the confusion and discord that I feel about the temple’s current wording process, and they will bring up body image issues that I have finally overcome. I can always wear them later if I am in a place where I can feel good about them between myself, my companion, and God. I honestly think that is the only way that I will get through the temple without feeling undermined and less valued, which is not good for me since I am trying to rebuild my trust with the God I once knew. The God I knew loved all His children equally, was not the author of confusion, and was patient as His children learned. Maybe I am being young and naive again. I still have a lot to learn about the church, culturally, doctrinally, and historically. But wouldn’t it be so wonderful if God will save those who truly want to be saved and redeem those who truly want to be redeemed?

3. And if Judgement Day happens and God is actually mad at me for making different promises than those exactly scripted in the temple (and for not wearing garments), I will tell Him that I couldn’t bear to lie to Him and make promises I couldn’t keep. I could only promise what I could honestly do in good conscious to myself, God, and my companion. I could only promise to try my best and to have hope that one day I will have clear understanding. Maybe then I could receive counsel face to face with God for why the covenants were phrased they way they were, and why garments were the way they were. Why it was so difficult for me and others to understand it. Maybe then I wouldn’t need to jump backwards through hoops just to feel ok about it. Hopefully God will understand that I honestly tried my best in this mixed-up faith of ours. And if not, well… at least hell is warm! 😆

[Anonymous]

NonTraditionalMom:

Quote:

“Although it’s true that the word “hate” is never spoken, I can certainly echo that feeling. I have left the temple, where I went with the explicit desire to gain some peace and understanding, feeling completely confused and unworthy. While I am nowhere near reconciled in my thoughts about this, I must conclude that this is division is man-made, and that the God I worship loves me as fully and equally as he does my husband and sons. Otherwise, like Hawk said, it’s not worth it. The last time I attended, I felt very emotionally manipulated, so that didn’t really help the situation. I wish I had some super helpful advice, but I’m just not there.”

I agree the division is man-made too. I really hope God doesn’t intend for this division between people who are simply trying to do their best. And if God is ok with all those divisions… then it’s personally not worth it to me. I honestly don’t believe I am just some accessory to someone’s salvation. I’m one of God’s kids too! 😯 And I personally feel it demeans our relationships when people cannot see each other as equals and love and respect each other equally. No one wins in that situation.

Ann:

Slow clap on your posts. You hit the nail on the head for me personally. Thank you for sharing.

SamBee:

Quote:

“IMHO, the endowment, with a few tweaks, could be reformed far more easily than our male-dominated ward/branch/stake structure.”

I agree. This is just one of the many factors that makes it difficult for me to go to church without experiencing problems. Simply bringing up stuff like that in the singles ward can land you in a bishop’s office. Or at the very least, social suicide and questions on your worthiness. I see nothing wrong in peaceful, well-meaning questioning. I do see wrong in aggressively antagonizing, however. It sure is hard waiting on the Lord’s timing sometimes! 😆 At least I can always worship in the privacy of my home or spend time in the scriptures to counteract our negative culture.

On Own Now:

Thank you for the helpful link! I appreciate it.

Heber13:

Quote:

“But temple ceremonies have been changed several times…it disappoints me they are so slow to address this inequality issue that lingers from a past generation of men who were ignorant to it. I believe it will change…I wish it would happen right now.”

I wish it would happen too. Then so many people will no longer have this confusion and fear. Isn’t Satan supposed to be the author of confusion, fear, and discord? It sure doesn’t seem like the fruits of the Spirit when it is so difficult to understand what is supposed to be a very sacred and special moment in a person’s life. But then again, if it’s all symbolic, maybe I am just not seeing it correctly. I still have much to learn in life. Again, young and naive here! 😆

[Anonymous]

N’oublie Pas wrote:

Again, young and naive here!

Nope…wise beyond your years.

[Anonymous]

N’oublie Pas wrote:

Isn’t Satan supposed to be the author of confusion, fear, and discord?

My son’s mission president often says one of the tools of Satan is making things more complicated. (I know this because my son tells us and it appears in the mission newsletter that parents get.) I’m not saying that the church follows Satan or anything like unto it, but the church does sometimes complicate simple things. From a TBM point of view, this would be could be an indication of Satan’s influence – except Satan supposedly has no influence n the temple. Quite a TBM conundrum.

[Anonymous]

Heber13:

Thank you!

DarkJedi:

Quote:

“I’m not saying that the church follows Satan or anything like unto it, but the church does sometimes complicate simple things. From a TBM point of view, this would be could be an indication of Satan’s influence – except Satan supposedly has no influence n the temple. Quite a TBM conundrum.”

Agreed. But I wouldn’t be surprised if many things were culturally influenced or put in there by pride. That’s just my take. Kinda like how there are weeds growing outside the temple, even though it is holy ground.

[Anonymous]

The good news about the temple is that you don’t just have to do the endowment. In fact, if you’re endowed, they’ll let you in the celestial room if you’ve been doing other work and are in robes (I asked for this recently). I prefer the baptistry and the sealing rooms personally.

[Anonymous]

I like to go with the youth of our ward especially if I have names of relatives.

I like to tell them “this was my Grand Mother, Aunt or GreatGM & give them a brief history.

It makes the experience less abstract to know the baptism (etc) is for a real person.

[Author]

Posts