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As Curt said, there are some real situations where leaders need to know risks and discipline is needed to protect the membership of the ward, or even a couple (in case of abuse or other situations). So perhaps the system has been setup with these rules for a purpose.
But then there are personal circumstances and with this couple, if there is no harm done to others or ongoing serious problems…it is jut something in the past…then if they just do as dande said and jump through the hoops as asked, then it gets taken care of, and move on. And I would say most bishops want to see people stay in the church, come back, be repentant and even help them be worthy to go to the temple…so bishops are going to want to try to help…but they will feel the need to make sure the couple follows the rules that are setup for everyone.
As DA was saying…I think it isn’t always a good thing. It can be more administrative than ministering or spiritual. It can be more about church and mortals living by rules than about a person and access to God, or even what God thinks about them.
Maybe it comes down to what people believe. If they can’t expand their minds to live with the fact that leaders are not special judges, but just volunteers, and they believe the quotes from Elder Bednar…then in that case…their best course is to just go through the process, submit, take their lumps for a year or so…then just move forward. Kinda sucks, but probably easiest.
But I see it as unnecessary…so I’m trying to see if they can grasp more unorthodox thinking, and for some that may be helpful. But…that spoonful of medicine isn’t for everyone. Some just can’t take it…they see it as an excuse or justification.
It comes down to their faith.
But I find the punitive system a bit harsh on these things that don’t seem to have an impact, it is all guilt manufactured by the church and that is all. It is unnecessary. But…maybe that is part of being in a group. There are rules.
My guess is they’ll avoid the church and those feelings until they have been out long enough, they just learn to accept it and find other things in life to replace church…and the longer it goes…the more normal that feels.
Heber13 wrote:
It comes down to their faith.But I find the punitive system a bit harsh on these things that don’t seem to have an impact, it is all guilt manufactured by the church and that is all. It is unnecessary. But…maybe that is part of being in a group. There are rules.
My guess is they’ll avoid the church and those feelings until they have been out long enough, they just learn to accept it and find other things in life to replace church…and the longer it goes…the more normal that feels.
A little story:My parents were raised Catholic & Methodist. I have a brother & sister. We were not raised with any particular religion. My brother & I would go to the Methodist church periodically (holidays). Between the ages of 16 – 18, I got into a lot of legal problems with the Police. By the time I was 18,
my name was in the newspapers along with our address. It caused a lot of pain for my family, especially my Mother.
I went to college, got a degree, joined the lds church, got a job, married & have (3) children. They are married & have children of their own.
My children have never come close to the pain I inflicted on my parents. It always haunted me well into my 50’s. Before my baptism (at 25), I talked to my Bishop & nothing more was said. After my baptism, I still carried this guilt around like a 100 lb bag of sand.
About a year before my Mother died, she was visiting with us. She was reviewing her life & made the following comment,
Quote:When you kids were growing up, I never had a problem with any of you.
So, like the dutiful son I am, I reminded her of the things I did as teenager. She looked at me trying to remember what I was talking about. Then I saw in her eyes that she knew what I was talking about. She then said:
Quote:Oh Mike, that was nothing.
In that moment I knew that not only had she forgiven me (38 yrs before), she forgot all about it. She had erased it from her memory.
I don’t know if she did that with everyone, but it was a gift she gave to me. I try to remember that every time I take the sacrament.
Heber, if you are a good friend, you will have a talk with them. Don’t let the opportunity pass by. You may be able to remove another 100 bag of sand. SWK told the story (Miracle of Forgiveness) of the artist Holman Hunt. He painted the picture titled: Christ at the door. It’s an excellent story about forgiveness & our role in the process. In the end, forgiveness is between us & God. (With help from friends & family.)
Thank you Minyan man. Thanks a lot. That was very moving, and straight to the point of the desire I have to help them. They can let go of that bag of sand. They can be in church.
They just need the right story in their head so when they go back to church, they don’t pick up the bag again.
I will try to find that story by SWK. Thanks.
Minyan Man wrote:
In the end, forgiveness is between us & God. (With help from friends & family.)
Thank you.
dande48 wrote:
SamBee wrote:
dande48 wrote:I’d send them to do a Catholic confession. They do it much better than we have.
My problem with this is that there is a formula and procedure they use, right? I’ve wanted to see what this is like but I suspect they’d sniff out a non-Catholic quickly. I’d do it on vacation somewhere else.
From what I understand, the Catholic priesthood will usually accept anyone’s confession, Catholic or not. The only thing they can’t do, is absolve a non-catholic’s sins.
I haven’t heard of this. I know they refuse non-Catholics bread and wine – if they know them to be so
SamBee wrote:
dande48 wrote:
SamBee wrote:My problem with this is that there is a formula and procedure they use, right? I’ve wanted to see what this is like but I suspect they’d sniff out a non-Catholic quickly. I’d do it on vacation somewhere else.
From what I understand, the Catholic priesthood will usually accept anyone’s confession, Catholic or not. The only thing they can’t do, is absolve a non-catholic’s sins.
I haven’t heard of this. I know they refuse non-Catholics bread and wine – if they know them to be so
I went to Catholic mass and asked about taking communion, they told me if I’m not Catholic I shouldn’t go up and take one…but…they wouldn’t refuse me if I did.Minyan Man, your comment is exactly why I love this forum. Thank you!
I know a Protestant who took the host not once but twice at the same event! He got funny looks from the priest when he said “thank you” as well. Personally I’m not keen on how they present the mass. The way they place it on your tongue and you share a cup… nah.
Heber13 wrote:
They are married. There seems to be no lasting repercussions…other than what they have been taught in church that it is unresolved, which makes them feel bad about themselves for messing up. They know other couples that confessed and went through the disciplinary process…which seemed kinda harsh to them. They aren’t sure they need to do that for something years in the past.What kind of advice could you give them?What do you all think? What is the gospel principle to cling to? What helps move to peace, what helps let go of the past? What brings peace? Should they try to nuance what they hear at church to what feels right to them, or just submit and go confess and let the process carry them forward?Is it manufacturing the guilt that requires confession to remove the guilt manufactured?
Your thoughts on this are appreciated.
My answers are:
What kind of advice could you give them?My answer would be: they are not alone. All have fallen short & require forgiveness. Time can help us understand the process & move through it.
Or it can make the guilt worse & we need help to work through it. IMO it doesn’t need to be a Bishop.
Is it manufacturing the guilt that requires confession to remove the guilt manufactured?If I understand the question, you can not manufacture guilt. Either you genuinely feel guilty or you don’t. Some people feel the need for
confession others do not. I personally need to talk if I feel guilty about something. I have a tendency to blow things out of proportion.
I use someone whose opinion I like & know. Someone who can hold my confidence without judgement. Rarely, in my case, would it be church leadership. If I stay within my own head tossing my thoughts around, I can get more confused.
Heber, what is your ultimate goal? and, can you get forgiveness without coming back to church?
SamBee wrote:
dande48 wrote:
SamBee wrote:My problem with this is that there is a formula and procedure they use, right? I’ve wanted to see what this is like but I suspect they’d sniff out a non-Catholic quickly. I’d do it on vacation somewhere else.
From what I understand, the Catholic priesthood will usually accept anyone’s confession, Catholic or not. The only thing they can’t do, is absolve a non-catholic’s sins.
I haven’t heard of this. I know they refuse non-Catholics bread and wine – if they know them to be so
In my experience as a Catholic no one ever asked. There are lots of people who sit in the pews and don’t fully participate in the rituals. When people stand to go up and get the sacrament (communion in their words) nobody cares about who gets up and who doesn’t. I can imagine if we did it the way Catholics do in my ward, most people would hurt their necks trying to turn around to see who didn’t get up. The culture of the thing is quite different.
I like the way the Catholic ritual emphasizes more of what’s actually going on – we’re remembering the Savior and what He did and we’re begging his grace and mercy. If you pay attention you will hear the words “Jesus our brother.”
On Catholic television (there are a couple different ones) you can watch mass. And there are many Youtube videos of masses. You don’t have to go to a Catholic church to see one.
Quote:On Catholic television (there are a couple different ones) you can watch mass. And there are many Youtube videos of masses. You don’t have to go to a Catholic church to see one.
I’ve been to a few. Traditional, tridentine, happy clappy… I gather pre-Vatican II the priest stood with his back to the congregation while blessing the host and it was all done in. I have been to Latin mass… but where you could see what was going on. Luckily I know enough Latin to know roughly what was going on.
The best thing about RC mass in my experience? Usually the music.
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