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Does anyone know where they teach (quotes or links to manuals) that it is harder to repent in the next life because we won’t have bodies? How does that make sense?
Are they just trying to create a fear to not procrastinate repentance so it is fair to all to good church goers, so they say you can’t really repent in the next life as good as you can repent in this life, but if you didn’t have a chance to hear the gospel in this life and repent and be baptized then there are baptisms for the dead and then people who accept it can still repent?
How does that make sense that you CAN still accept Christ in the spirit world…but it is HARDER to repent?
Someone wanna explain that to me and provide some church quotes on it?
What do you believe about repentance and when it should be done? Why?
I’m going to speak as a man, but I think the whole speculation on what it will be like as a spirit is hogwash (pardon my French). There have been so many varied viewpoints from general authorities on repentance in the afterlife, from continual progression including between kingdoms, to no progression at all following judgment. This variance of ideas and opinions means we simply don’t know. There has been a general acceptance of the idea that it will be harder to repent without bodies. I don’t know where this comes from. Maybe from that quote about how the same proclivities that guide is in this life will continue in the next (sorry I can’t remember who said it or what exactly was said). But why would it be any harder? One example I’ve heard is in regards to a smoker who dies addicted to smoking and how it would be hard to repent and change without a body. Just makes no sense to me. So much of addiction comes from the chemistry in our brains. Will our spirits be releasing dopamine and other endorphins and reinforcing addictive behavior?
Bottom line – I sincerely believe that we don’t KNOW a single thing about what the other side of the veil will be like. All has been merely speculation and projecting. It is and will remain the great mystery.
Here’s one scripture reference of many that contributes towards those thoughts. There are others but I’m procrastinating looking them up right now. 
Alma 34: 32-35 wrote:For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors.
And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed.
Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.
For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked.
I can understand someone’s argument that it would be harder as a spirit to repent of sins of the flesh when they lack a body but that only pertains to the short (we’re talking eternity here) window people spend in the spirit world. After the resurrection you’ll have a body back and presumably be able to repent efficiently again… except for the idea many floated that you don’t progress from kingdom to kingdom. I think the belief that there’s no progression from kingdom to kingdom thing comes from this concept that decisions in this life have to mean
something. If there’s progression from kingdom to kingdom what’s to keep the heathens from enjoying life and repenting later? …or… it wouldn’t be fair if I sacrificed to keep my passions in check while someone else didn’t and we somehow ended up with the same reward in the end. It can strain someone’s concept of justice. On the subject of it being hard to repent without a body. I can see the logic. Repentance is a process of refinement. If the goal is to learn how to have my spirit gain dominion over a body it would be impossible to do without a body. Wanna learn how to play a guitar? At some point you’re going to have to pick up a guitar. Put the guitar down for a few months? Chances are you aren’t going to get any better at playing the guitar during those few months. Wanna get better at controlling a body? Chances are you aren’t going to get better at playing with your body (
It was reinforced in the Swayze/Moore movie, “Ghost”, so it must be true. nibbler wrote:it wouldn’t be fair if I sacrificed to keep my passions in check while someone else didn’t and we somehow ended up with the same reward in the end. It can strain someone’s concept of justice
this seems to be a major thing in the reason for how we teach it…fairness. And the fairness seems to be a human thing. Which makes me wonder if the teaching is eternal from God or if it is a human teaching to help keep order in the church because humans want that…but not sure it translates to being fair in the eternities.
I mean…some small decisions in this short mortal blip of an experience is gonna matter forever????
Sometimes I go down this road of thought and the whole thing unravels to a bunch of meaningless stuff…kind of like what DT days…we really don’t know much about the next life or eternities and how it is all going to be fair or not. So…what matters?
That is why I try to focus on love, charity, and movement toward perfection (completion, wholeness, full development). After all, Jesus said all the law and the prophets hang on those things. As Nibbler quoted in greater detail — Here is evidence it’s harder to repent after this life — some of the scriptures don’t address the absence of body. But there are some that allude to the fact it’s easier to repent now than in the next life: Quote:
Alma 34:33Book of Mormon
…do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life,
then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed. This scripture below implies that without a body, there are things you can’t do, hence the feeling of being in bondage. It wouldn’t surprise me if repenting of bodily cravings or changing the relationship between body and spirit is one of them.
Quote:
D&C 13849 All these and many more, even the prophets who dwelt among the Nephites and testified of the coming of the Son of God, mingled in the vast assembly and waited for their deliverance,
50 For the dead had looked upon
the long absence of their spirits from their bodies as a bondage. I hope that bears on the discussion.
The part that is confusing is that the devil only lives in Outer Darkness. So, I wonder if the author of the first quote and Nibbler’s quote is talking about outer darkness and not the telestial kingdom?
And what about the mercifulness of God and this scripture that indicates punishment is not forever…??
Quote:
D&C 194 And surely every man must repent or suffer, for I, God, am endless.
5 Wherefore, I revoke not the judgments which I shall pass, but woes shall go forth, weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth, yea, to those who are found on my left hand.
6
Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment. 7 Again, it is written eternal damnation; wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory.
8 Wherefore, I will explain unto you this mystery, for it is meet unto you to know even as mine apostles.
9 I speak unto you that are chosen in this thing, even as one, that you may enter into my rest.
10 For, behold, the mystery of godliness, how great is it! For, behold, I am endless, and the punishment which is given from my hand is endless punishment, for Endless is my name. Wherefore—
11 Eternal punishment is God’s punishment.
12 Endless punishment is God’s punishment.
JS added a lot of stuff in D&C that you don’t find in the BoM. The BoM says that it contains the fulness of the gospel, but not one word about eternal marriage that you can hang your hat on — yet we are told in D&C such a covenent is critical for the highest level of salvation. BoM says nothing about the 3 degrees of glory. So, is it possible the BoM is incomplete, and the finality of judgment described in that book is is a form of BS meant to simply motivate people to try hard now??? that is what the scripture above implies.
I have to admit, I’m confused. Particularly when you go back to the BoM which says this:
Quote:
2 Nephi 287 Yea, and there shall be many which shall say: Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die; and it shall be well with us.
8 And there shall also be many which shall say: Eat, drink, and be merry; nevertheless, fear God—he will justify in committing a little sin; yea, lie a little, take the advantage of one because of his words, dig a pit for thy neighbor; there is no harm in this; and do all these things, for tomorrow we die; and if it so be that we are guilty, God will beat us with a few stripes, and at last we shall be saved in the kingdom of God.
….and it goes on and then says:
3 Yea, they are grasped with death, and hell; and death, and hell, and the devil, and all that have been seized therewith must stand before the throne of God, and be judged according to their works, from whence they must go into the place prepared for them, even a lake of fire and brimstone, which is endless torment.
24 Therefore, wo be unto him that is at ease in Zion!
25 Wo be unto him that crieth: All is well!
.
Seems to contradict D&C 19 above that there is probably a period of suffering at which point God, when satisfied you’ve reformed yourself, will release you from the suffering?
I can find no scripture that reconciles these conflicting views.
The pessimist would prepare for the worst and jump through all the hoops on this earth, and be TBM. The optimist like me would remember the liberal clauses above and be prepared to share them on judgment day…
This from DT:
Quote:Bottom line – I sincerely believe that we don’t KNOW a single thing about what the other side of the veil will be like. All has been merely speculation and projecting. It is and will remain the great mystery.
And this from Ray:
Quote:That is why I try to focus on love, charity, and movement toward perfection (completion, wholeness, full development). After all, Jesus said all the law and the prophets hang on those things.
That’s really all I have to say about it.This is a good discussion. That’s true the scriptures do say those things regarding the spirit world and the spirit being separated from the body, but then a member of the church who had a near-death experience told Bill Reel in his Mormon Discussions podcast that just having a spirit feels just as real as a physical body does because it’s matter. So I don’t know what to think. All scriptural compilations should have elements of disagreement, since they are written by people at different times and places, with different world views and belief systems. If the D&C, the Bible, and the BofM all agreed with each other, I would be much more skeptical of the later two – and, especially, of the last one, chronologically (the D&C). Believing they all say or should say the same thing is, in practical terms, a belief in scriptural inerrancy – and that isn’t part of our official doctrine, even if too many members believe it.
As far as the central question of the post goes, our theology says, obviously, that there will be repentance (change) after this life – both in changing beliefs and in eternal progression (eternal change). Whether it is harder or not, we teach that untold millions will do both types of repenting. I like that evolved view far more than one interpretation of one passage from a record claiming to be quoting a prophet who lived over two thousand years ago (and wasn’t named Jesus, of Nazareth).
I flat-out don’t think there is much truth to the idea that repentance is harder in the spirit world. It’s one of those “telephone” doctrines that nobody can pin down to a specific source and confirm from multiple witnesses or any canonized scripture. I’ve come to believe pretty much the opposite.
I suspect that repentance is no harder in the spirit world than it is here- it’s just the people who reject the gospel here probably won’t repent quite so readily. We know from the Book of Mormon that you’re the same person after you die. I interpret that to mean that whatever trajectory you have in this life will carry on to the next. i.e. if you’re unrepentant here, you’ll still be unrepentant there. You can still change, but it usually takes something big to change an attitude like that.
I don’t subscribe to the idea that there are “cutoff dates” for repentance other than judgement day itself. I believe there is always hope (at least theoretically) for every last person who has ever or will ever exist to return to live with Heavenly Father in the Celestial Kingdom. The people who won’t go there are just the ones who refuse to accept Christ and change. The only reason the sons of perdition go to outer darkness is because they knowingly decided to disown God and want nothing to do with him- and as such, they will never change no matter how many opportunities are extended to them to do so.
Old Timer wrote:
All scriptural compilations should have elements of disagreement, since they are written by people at different times and places, with different world views and belief systems. If the D&C, the Bible, and the BofM all agreed with each other, I would be much more skeptical of the later two – and, especially, of the last one.Believing they all say or should say the same thing is, in practical terms, a belief in scriptural inerrancy – and that isn’t part of our official doctrine, even if too many members believe it.
For me, there should be some reconciliation of conflicting views in the scriptures, or through revelation or both at some point. Otherwise, how can they be the final guide so many GA’s tell us they are?
If one scripture says “2+2=4” and another says “2+2=5”, then there should be a truth that reconciles them in some way. For example, “2” in Androdian culture is bigger than a 2 in Human culture, and the second equation uses Androdian 2’s on the left side of the equation, and Human size on the right side of the equation. That’s how 2+2 = a value greater than 4.
Now it makes sense. And scriptures, meant to be the source of truth, need to be understandable and reconcileable at some level to have significan, final word on issues for me personally.
Quote:As far as the central question of the post goes, our theology says, obviously, that there will be repentance (change) after this life – both in changing beliefs and in eternal progression (eternal change). Whether it is harder or not, we teach that untold millions will do both types of repenting. I like that evolved view far more than one interpretation of one passage from a record claiming to be quoting a prophet who lived over two thousand years ago (and wasn’t named Jesus, of Nazareth).
I find it hard to believe God would consign us to billions of years of misery due to a few decades of screwups in a world where there is not clear, objective evidence of the truth. One where you have to “exercise faith” in one of the many sets of truths out there, rather than knowing the truth and simply living by it for sure. I see no point in faith when its in something that represents only 1 of many, conflicting options.
I go with the liberal interpretation that everything WILL be OK in zion if I live my life the best I can, make happiness my goal, not necessarily full compliance with an unproven religion.
I see scriptures as the best approximation of God recorded by an individual and/or a people at any given time (or time period). Frankly, that definition is implied quite heavily in the Book of Mormon, with quite a few statements pointing to that view. The Bible and D&C are more authoritarian, but I see them the same way. I reject any attempt to make them inerrant or to synchronize them in an attempt to establish a consistent orthodoxy throughout history. That view simply doesn’t work, logically, when you compare the actual texts.
Old Timer wrote:
I see scriptures as the best approximation of God recorded by an individual and/or a people at any given time (or time period). Frankly, that definition is implied quite heavily in the Book of Mormon, with quite a few statements pointing to that view. The Bible and D&C are more authoritarian, but I see them the same way.I reject any attempt to make them inerrant or to synchronize them in an attempt to establish a consistent orthodoxy throughout history. That view simply doesn’t work, logically, when you compare the actual texts.
Then other than being idea triggerse (aka inspiration triggers) I don’t get how they are much more value than just about any wise book of information. It means we can’t even be sure if the 70 years on this planet is the only shot we get at eternal life, or if there are continued chances after we did. Pretty fundmental truth to nail down for the seeker of truth isn’t it?
Quote:Then other than being idea triggers (aka inspiration triggers) I don’t get how they are much more value than just about any wise book of information.
Neither do I – except as a look at the collective faith view of a people. I respect and actually treasure that – in a “turn my heart” sort of way. I also like the D&C statement about seeking wisdom and learning out of the best books (not just the scriptures), and Articles of Faith dealing with seeking after *anything* that is virtuous, lovely, praiseworthy, or of good report and having *many* great and important things that still are unrevealed, since they imply the same thing, in the end.
Quote:It means we can’t even be sure if the 70 years on this planet is the only shot we get at eternal life, or if there are continued chances after we did.
Yep. It’s all about faith and figuring out what we want to believe. I love that freedom.
Quote:Pretty fundmental truth to nail down for the seeker of truth isn’t it?
Seek to know? Sure. “Nail down”? I don’t believe we can do it, so I don’t try.
Establishing clear cut, eternal, Mormon doctrine is like trying to nail Jello to the wall. I love that, but it drives some people nuts.
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