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I feel this getting a bit uncomfortable but, if it stays civil, I’ll comment. 
“I guess I’m curious, how do you pick and choose past “revelations”? You made the comment that it’s not your choice, God decides.
Well, we normally go by what Joseph Smith said regarding that:
TPJS 368 … if any man preach any other gospel than that which I have preached he shall be cursed.
TPJS 214 How, it may be asked, was this known to be a bad angel? by his contradicting a former revelation.
” How could you even keep track of them all?”
Good point….it’s not easy.
It’s pretty simple really, we view what BY taught on blacks to be true. I know, I know,…..that doesn’t sit well with our current worldly views on it and we have to accept the consequences.
I could go into a lengthy disertation but that wouldn’t benefit anyone.
I will say this and try to let it go:
If I were the major contributor to black charities…
If I committed my life to work in the inner-city ghettos…
If I spent all my free time toward helping under-priveledged black kids…
Heck, if I spent black history month out drumming up contributions to the united negro college fund…
etc, etc….
And I stated a belief that blacks, for some reason, shouldn’t have the priesthood yet. …..
I would, in today’s world, still be labeled as “racist” and a person filled with “hate”.
Our culture has taught us that this belief is “wrong”. Is it? Who says so? Certainly not the God of the bible, BoM, PoGP, etc.
Who am I to tell Him what is right or wrong?
We probably should let this go. It’s just not something that is going to produce understanding on either side and it’s certainly not in the spirit of this blog. I’m just stating beliefs but try to always remain open-minded.
My opinion only…
Mileage will vary wildly.
Bruce, you said that blacks are not to hold priesthood until after the millenium. Is that your current belief? Is the LDS Church astray in extending priesthood blessings to blacks? When and to whom (since 1820) was it revealed that blacks were not to hold the priesthood? I don’t want to be coy, so I should tell you I accept the current general understanding and historical consensus that Joseph Smith ordained racial Africans to the priesthood apparently indiscriminately, and that the LDS priesthood ban blacks-ward was started in 1852 (curiously the same time polygamy was announced publicly) by Brigham Young. And that the traditions about curse of Cain and curse of Ham came into the LDS Church from the protestant tradition of the time. But I want to know your beliefs.
Well, with respect, I don’t think that 2 blacks over that many years, Elijah Able and Walker Lewis, constitute “indiscriminately”. We look at is as not done properly with Joseph’s new and limited understanding but that BY “straightened it out” and removed all doubt as to their status. We view it as Joseph’s knowledge increasing in this, as well as many other things.
We feel that Joseph taught Brigham this doctrine and believe Brigham when he says that he doesn’t preach any doctrine but what Joseph preached first. (something like that)
And we view the curses of Cain and Ham as being much older than protestantism.
I don’t feel I should comment further on this on this forum….
Thanks, Bruce. You are ok. *hugs* Yes, thanks, Bruce. This is a difficult subject, with emotions that run deep and flare easily – and you handled your responses with diginity and grace, even though we disagree fundamentally. (no pun intended)
I agree that we probably should move back to the original point of the post now.@Bruce I really do appreciate your views. You haven’t offended me in the slightest, nor do I think less of you, nor am I raging about what you said or think. I really do enjoy having a fundamentalist view here. I find the fundamentalist view to have value. I think it is more consistent at times than what we experience in the LDS church.
My point is that I enjoyed your comments, and I enjoy your presence on the forum.
Thanks, It’s a bit of a joke in the fundamentalist community that it seems sometimes that we love the Church more than the members do.
I don’t know…whether fundamentalist or mainstream….we have a heck of a lot more in common than in the ways we differ. I love the Church and the people in it and hate to see misunderstandings over history drive folks away.
If a person takes an honest prayerful look at our history and feels that things are wrong and they don’t want to associate with the Church…fine…but a lot of folks are duped by exmo propoganda IMHO.
I allowed it to drive me away for many years but, in honest retrospect, I probably was looking for something to find fault with so I could lead a more secular life. Hopefully the leadership is recognizing this problem and will do more to address it than depend on outside apologetics to provide relief for disgruntled members. In fairness to them, it’s a heck of a lot easier to criticize them than to suggest a workable solution.
Our history is what it is. IMHO…let’s don’t sugar coat it and, at the same time, let’s be careful viewing it with 21st century secular values. (the latter is the hard part, at least for me)
I think this is an interesting question. If it is posed in another way, most of you wouldn’t hesitate to say that we have a responsibility towards the ignorant. What is missionary work? If you think you have knowledge that can help someone, then sharing it isn’t a terrible idea. A lot of people have devastated their families when they became Mormon. It has certainly caused plenty of people heartache and doubt when they thought they had the truth with another religion. I think it’s a double standard to say that we shouldn’t share our thoughts with others. While the journey isn’t easy, plenty of people say they are much happier when they have less rigid views about Mormonism. IMHO, ignorance should be combated wherever it is, because in the end ignorance, not knowledge and reason, causes unhappiness and suffering. OK, wordsleuth. So where do I sign up for the course on how to become a welcome voice of warning in the ward? On the way back from a scout outing this week I took the liberty of saying that each of us has many great and important things yet to learn so we can live the life we came to live, and I felt I was an instant heretic with the black spot. “Why, we already have everything we need. All we need to do is live it.” I am clearly ignorant of what it takes. And I know it takes love. So that means I need to find love. Sigh. Why did I know it would boil down to that?
Tom Haws wrote:OK, wordsleuth. So where do I sign up for the course on how to become a welcome voice of warning in the ward? On the way back from a scout outing this week I took the liberty of saying that each of us has many great and important things yet to learn so we can live the life we came to live, and I felt I was an instant heretic with the black spot. “Why, we already have everything we need. All we need to do is live it.”
I am clearly ignorant of what it takes. And I know it takes love. So that means I need to find love. Sigh. Why did I know it would boil down to that?
Tom, I was responding to Spacious Maze’s question. I’m not suggesting that you need to be the voice of warning in your ward. What I am saying is that if Spacious Maze has an “ignorant friend”–as he termed it–then attempting to open his eyes some isn’t a bad idea. A lot of the responses have said that encroaching on someone else’s happiness wouldn’t be a good thing. I don’t think that helping someone understand that they have a close-minded view of things is bad. I know I harp on this a lot, but ignorance causes a lot of harm in this world. I’ve talked to some good friends and family members about my concerns over the last 5 years, and they have very different views about the Church than they used to. Not bad views, but more open minded, less black and white views. Talking to friends and family in one on one settings is very different from being the voice of warning for my ward.
Bruce, thanks again for jumping in on this stuff. Let’s get back on track. Anyone remember the sheik that was murdered at a gas station by some redneck idiot after 9/11 because the redneck thought the Indian with the headwrap was muslim? If only the redneck looked up headcoverings on wikipedia and learned that they are garments of utility to middle-easterners, but are religious garments only to the sheiks, which they use to cover their uncut hair. Ignorance is bad. I think I’m with wordsleuth here. Some people go their whole lives without knowing the information behind their beliefs. I think we must
earncertainty. How can we have such a strong testimony if we don’t explore the story of our own religion? I do not have a testimony of the words of my parents, or of the songs I sing and stories I hear. I have a testimony built of my knowledge of God, and it is ever-developing. I’m a passionate person, so keeping a lid on interesting (faith-affirming or not) info about the church is difficult to me. I know I’m eventually gonna have to speak to my friend about some stuff I feel he would benefit to know. I could use some suggestions of a starting point; a book, maybe, or a few factoids that can add some perspective without making him feel too weird. I just feel he’s playing a guitar on one string. I’ll try to stop using lame metaphors in the future.
One point: The MormonStories interview with the Mormon Mason helps to clear up a lot of the confusion about masonic origins in temple rituals. It completely shifts the idea I had and made the temple stuff seem much less mysterious and much more normal. This was great for me, because I really struggled with the literalness of temple work. The interview added information I was unaware of, placed things in their proper context, and reshaped my view on a church issue. Yes my view changed, but now I know more about the issue and feel much better about it.
“Do unto others as you would have them do unto you” is a fascinating concept when pondered deeply. There are a lot of ways to spin it and justify actions that you really wouldn’t want others taking with you – but in the end, I believe it really is about respecting others enough not to try to force them to see what they aren’t ready to see. I’m all for sharing things that will enlarge someone’s soul and bring them joy and peace, but some people simply are not thinkers/tinkerers – and to try to force them to be so can be brutal and cruel. What resonates within me might explode within someone else – and I would rather leave them “ignorant” than “shattered”.
In spite of some of my other posts, I’m with Ray on this one. Some people choose ignorance out of spite for people who think they know better. And they are happy in their certainty that these “open-minded do-gooders” are working for the “other side”. “Philosophy of men, mingled with scripture”. I said this in another post, you may actually effect the opposite change then you intend; this person could retrench with a stronger resolve of “blind obedience”, “blind faith”. Clinging to the iron rod, eyes closed, and ears plugged. Maybe…
Tom Haws wrote:OK, wordsleuth. So where do I sign up for the course on how to become a welcome voice of warning in the ward? On the way back from a scout outing this week I took the liberty of saying that each of us has many great and important things yet to learn so we can live the life we came to live, and I felt I was an instant heretic with the black spot. “Why, we already have everything we need. All we need to do is live it.”
I am clearly ignorant of what it takes. And I know it takes love. So that means I need to find love. Sigh. Why did I know it would boil down to that?
Tom, I don’t think you said anything wrong and there was probably nothing wrong with your delivery. The modern church is indoctrinated to believe we have The Fulness of the Gospel. LOL It is kinda funny to me that Joseph spent so much time telling the saints that there was more and we spend so much time telling ourselves there is no more.
😆 
Anyway, people are often closed to further light and knowledge. Really reminds me of the children of Isreal.
I would like to teach a lesson Sunday about love and grace. I feel so passionatly about it and know I could teach it with the Spirit. YET, I have this fear that the older sisters will bring up works, works, works. Oh, and obedience (last weeks lesson). I am so tired of hearing about the works of man-give me some of God’s grace already!
Finding love is a great idea, btw. I highly recommend it.
Old-Timer wrote:“Do unto others as you would have them do unto you” is a fascinating concept when pondered deeply. There are a lot of ways to spin it and justify actions that you really wouldn’t want others taking with you – but in the end, I believe it really is about respective others enough not to tr to force them to see what they aren’t ready to see.
I’m all for sharing things that will enlarge someone’s soul and bring them joy and peace, but some people simply are not thinkers/tinkerers – and to try to force them to be so can be brutal and cruel. What resonates within me might explode within someone else – and I would rather leave them “ignorant” than “shattered”.
How do you know when someone is ready to see? My brother didn’t know where I was at spiritually when he introduced to me to D. Michael Quinn and Grant Palmer. Sure, I’ve struggled tremendously since then, but in many ways I’m now a happier person. Even when I was struggling, I didn’t hold it against my brother, rather, I was grateful. I’m grateful that he cared about me enough to show me what he believed to be truth. Whether it be a brother, a friend, or a fellow ward member, caring enough to share what you believe to be truth isn’t a bad thing.
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