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Whether it be a brother, a friend, or a fellow ward member, caring enough to share what you believe to be truth isn’t a bad thing.
I’ve never said otherwise.Sounds like your friend is ripe to take a very hard fall, I would be very slow to share anything with him. If you do choose to share LDS history with him, I would limit it to sources that put a positive spin on it (like rough stone rolling) and let him interpret it. I’m reticent towards introducing him to Rough Stone Rolling, even though it is gentle around the “tough issues”, it still paints a much different picture of Mormonism from what TBMs would learn at church. After reading it, I found myself leaning further away from the church. It actually gave some relief to all the guilt I had for being uncomfortable with so much in the church. Then again, he is a grown man, sheesh. Well..I would say if the two of you have “Religious” talk outside of Church than of course you should share your *knowlegde*-of whatever you are talking about at the moment. Church (from what I’ve realized) is not to cause questioning or argument – It is suppose to feed the spirit and increase testimony through (although watered down) faith promoting history, stories, thought etc. For the record the way things are taught, whitewashed and handled through the system anger me and I can’t stand it .. But the journey is and should be completely self taught/studied – If that makes sense. In discussion sharing the facts – Even if they are “Ugly” is well .. perfectly fine..But when people find out they don’t know everything .. When things get turned upside down – People can get defensive and weird, angry, sad etc .. Just don’t feel like you have to stick up for yourself or “Prove” your findings or come off as a know it all. It is what it is – I’m reading RSR – So far it is pretty clear on what is fact and what is cloudy..Hey I feel you! My DH is in the known of a lott of “Ugly” things and it makes him “Stronger” which is very difficult b/c Hey if he can shelf things .. SO can I right?! – I believe I will struggle to hold back on all of my findings when I see him soon. ( Iraq ) If only we could all be open and honest with eachother! Why does it seem now that some of the most faithful people seem to be the most fearful when it comes to new knowlegde – That just happens to be true but “Ugly”? Or is that all in my head?!
LaLaLove wrote:But when people find out they don’t know everything .. When things get turned upside down – People can get defensive and weird, angry, sad etc …If only we could all be open and honest with eachother!
I think you bring up a good point. It’s been a while since you posted this spacious maze, but here’s something else to consider. When you bring something up, do it in a very uncertain way, since indeed, so much of church history is uncertain. I have a TBM friend who occasionally talks to me about church history issues. He knows virtually nothing about the conundrums and problems of church history. All he knows is faith promoting history. Interestingly, he is very black and white thinking about Joseph (which surprises me given his nature on other topics in which he sees so much nuance). Yet he has claimed that if the things I claim are true (when I share with him my view that the BoM is a 19th century text), then Joseph is an outright fraud. I certainly don’t see it quite that way.Anyway, my point is that I try very hard to approach things with him in a very uncertain way. Not only is it more honest for me, but he doesn’t feel as threatened.
LaLaLove wrote:Why does it seem now that some of the most faithful people seem to be the most fearful when it comes to new knowlegde – That just happens to be true but “Ugly”? Or is that all in my head?!
That’s a great question LaLaLove. I think a lot of this could be traced to conditioning. We are often conditioned in the church to believe that if all this is false then there’s no eternal families, we went to the temple for nothing, kept the WoW for nothing etc. That is, if the literal belief is replaced with metaphorical belief, that is somehow less satisfying. I submit this is a falsehood and is somewhat indicative of a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of the church, Joseph’s revelations, and religion in general. If it turns out that the church is entirely false from a literal perspective, I don’t, for one second, believe that makes all the things we do in the church pointless.Quote:by swimordie » 27 Jul 2009, 15:31
This one happened to me last night at family dinner. (very tbm, huh?)
Somehow we got on the discussion of Native American agricultural practices in the desert southwest (I know standard family dinner discussion ), and I mentioned that a couple local tribes are athabascan.
Orson Scott Card once made the comment that Lehi found a people already here and that that accounts for the quick buildup of population after they arrived. Would love to read other insights into such people, I have read many theories about the land route. Any BYU papers on the subject?
Old-Timer, I admire your restraint to Spacious Maze opening comments. I followed your example and did like wise. Prehaps restraint is not the right word.
jeriboy wrote:I admire your restraint to Spacious Maze opening comments. I followed your example and did like wise
Jeriboy, I appreciate the respectful walking-on-eggshells, but you need not show restraint when responding to my comments. Lay it on me, I’m here to exercise thoughts.
Old-Timer wrote:Leave him to his own happiness – and be willing to step in if it stops working for him at some point. Destroying a paradigm that brings happiness to someone is NEVER a good thing – especially since there is NO guarantee that what you offer him to replace it will work for him.
I was just going back through this old discussion … for some reason I have lately wondered about whether to begin talking to my 2 brothers about what things I’ve read and things I think about the church since my crisis of faith, and journey of hope.As I read through these comments on this thread…2 things struck me:
1) I was extremely fond of the church’s new missionary styles stressed while I was on my mission in 1989, that truth will set you free, and as a missionary, I simply taught the gospel principles, and let the investigators decide what to accept or reject…I had no “responsibility” other than to declare the word. Why is it that this doesn’t go both ways for church members? Shouldn’t I just share what things are known pretty solidly with church history (i.e. Joseph didn’t translate the plates, etc.)…without the responsibility to convince others but just share what I know and let them think what they think? Why is ok for the church to zealously proselytize, but not listen?
2) I want to do it for my benefit, not to show others I’m more enlightened then them? I would like my brothers to warn me if I’m going off track, if I’m getting too far away from the spirit, if I’m putting my trust in the arm of flesh. If something I say shakes them because of that, wouldn’t it be better with a discussion with a loving brother than an angry anti-mormon? I remember my dad talking to me about sex because he didn’t want me to have to hear it told to me too rough and crude. He could explain things in a safe way, without having to reveal details not needed on my little brain. I want them to understand my doubts and if they have a better explanation than what I’ve come up with so far, then they can enlighten me, because the trust and loving atmosphere would be the most appropriate forum for that. Am I too optimistic? Am I naive?
I dunno…I have taken reserve for now, and talk to all of you as my outlet. But sometimes I wonder if I shouldn’t openly be able to talk to my brothers as well. That is, if they’re interested (not shoving it down their throats like an over-zealous missionary).
Heber13 wrote:I dunno…I have taken reserve for now, and talk to all of you as my outlet. But sometimes I wonder if I shouldn’t openly be able to talk to my brothers as well. That is, if they’re interested (not shoving it down their throats like an over-zealous missionary).
I’ll repeat my stance that I have found useful (and you have alluded to this Heber in private conversations). I do not advertise my beliefs, or try to convince anyone that I am right. But, if someone asks me, and sincerely wants to know, I will tell them if they want to have a respectful discussion. I don’t believe in hiding my beliefs, but that doesn’t mean I need to advertise them.I remember the first time someone asked me if I would like to see any information about the church that might make me doubt the church. He said, “I don’t want to shake your faith, so if you would rather not get into it, I understand.” I was so sure of myself at that time and also thought, I could handle the truth no matter what. So, I told him I would like to see what he has. He gave me Jerald and Sandra Tanners book, “Mormonism, Shadow or Reality.” I had never given stuff I thought was anti-Mormon much credence because of the sourses they quoted, but this had alot of stuff right out of Journal of Discourses and Church History. I was so shocked by some of the stuff I read and it really shook my faith. I met for over a year with a man in my ward who had a masters degree in Church history from the University of Utah to go over this stuff with me. He helped me understand the culture of those times and what the wild west was like, which did help. We also went over the sourses of the temple ceremonies and I read, “Are Mormons Christian” by Robinson. For a while I really thought I had been decieved and betrayed by the church. It was devestating for me. I started praying like never before and told God I would rather know the truth than live a lie. It was strange but during that time I realized how much I loved the church and the gospel and how painful it would be to loose it. It would be like finding out your mate had cheated on you and you would have to leave the relationship. It is hard to be brutally honest and want to know the truth, but anything else will burst your bubble eventually anyway. I was happy that God led me back to the church and feel like this is where I belong although it is difficult for us members who think outside the box. Unfortunately, my Danish friend who I helped bring to the church, is disilluioned in the leaders and church now. He is constantly trying to find stuff wrong about the church and then wants to share it with me. He is on a ex-Mormon forum called “Mormon Curtain’ and was constantly trying to show me negative stuff. I could not handle it anymore and told him to stop. I believe God wants me in the church and so I needed to find uplifting and strengthing stuff that was based on truth as well. So, this can go both ways.
bridget_night wrote:I believe God wants me in the church and so I needed to find uplifting and strengthing stuff that was based on truth as well. So, this can go both ways.
It certainly can. What’s the saying about truth being a two edged sword?
I think sometimes it takes time for people to “come to terms” with a lot of the stuff. I certainly went through a phase where I wanted to uncover everything that could be found. I think it’s like scaling a rocky cliff, if you step on something that gives way – you secure yourself and start kicking everything loose that you can until you get down to something solid.
But then after a time, in my opinion, I think it’s time to remove the polarized lenses and start to see the world in its full color and beauty.
Heber13 wrote:I want them to understand my doubts and if they have a better explanation than what I’ve come up with so far, then they can enlighten me, because the trust and loving atmosphere would be the most appropriate forum for that. Am I too optimistic? Am I naive?
I”m not sure if you were asking this rhetorically or not. If not, my guess is that you may be too optimistic. I don’t know anything about your brothers, but I do know that by participating here on staylds, we might get the sense that everyone is as open and questioning as we are. I think we’re the exception. (And exceptional, imho
😳 😆 )Tread lightly.
swimordie wrote:I”m not sure if you were asking this rhetorically or not. If not, my guess is that you may be too optimistic. I don’t know anything about your brothers, but I do know that by participating here on staylds, we might get the sense that everyone is as open and questioning as we are. I think we’re the exception. (And exceptional, imho
😳 😆 )Tread lightly.
Good point, Swimordie. One has to be in the right frame of mind to be thinking of things differently. My one brother is a bishop, the other counselor in the bishopric. I might just in a round-about way ask them how they deal with others who have these kinds of doubts and see what their “openness” seems to be.
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