Revelation

[Anonymous]

Just a question to all us strugglers: do you think church authorities are still receiving revelation? (and I mean the JS kind)

[Anonymous]

I’m feeling a bit pessimistic and sour today, so I lean toward yes – they are receiving the JS type of revelation (as described by Fawn Brodie).

On my better days I lean toward they are receiving revelation the same as you and I receiving, with all the difficulties there are in interpretting what that revelation actually means.

[Anonymous]

I think people are receiving more dramatic revelations sometimes, but mostly just the promptings and intuition kind. This isn’t so much a part of our Church these days, at least not talking about them so openly.

My center of authority shifted towards the internal many years ago. So I think these might be revelations, but it doesn’t mean the same thing to me in a practical way anymore unless I have the revelation (or a confirmation).

[Anonymous]

The best “report” we have of a JS type of revelation in the more recent history of the Church is Spencer W Kimball’s struggle to get a revelation on Blacks and the Priesthood. This apprently was a fairly long process of intense prayer day after day until finally a revelation came. I think that indicates that JS types of revelations like we see in the D&C don’t happen very often. We can probably think of the Proclamation on the Family as at least being prompted by such a kind of revelation but that is the only more recent example I can think of off hand.

So I think that they are just like you and me, human beings struggling with faith seeking the guidance of the Holy Ghost. I think one doctrinal point would be that we have had plenty of examples both in scripture and in the early history of the Church of people (Oliver Cowdery for example) who experienced revelations but that did not keep them in the gospel. So the gift of the Holy Ghost, learning to listen to the still small voice, to experiece that peace of mind and certainly when something is confirmed to you can be seen as a more “sure witness” than a “Thus sayeth the Lord” utterances.

[Anonymous]

I have been asking this same question. My general answer is YES. BUT..I think there are determining factors. The will and wisdom of the Lord being one of them. Are the people spiritually ready or is there more proving that needs to take place before knowledge is given. How are the people responding to the degree of knowledge given on any subject? I mean, I haven’t been a god so I don’t know what it would be like to see the big picture and have global objectives. Being a parent is my best hint as it is not always wise or necessary to tell my kids everything or give them what they want just because they want it.

I wonder though about circumstances when it appears that the church needs revelations and the heavens seem to be closed. Kimball and the priesthood is a good example. As I try to understand and exercize faith at the same time, I find some parts of my thinking falling short. With some of the issues of today, I want more heavenly answers that come from the church HQ. But perhaps the desires for revelation aren’t necessarily the only prerequisits for recieving it. OR….perhaps our wishes are granted but not necessarily on our timelines.

I have also been fascinated by the results of personal revelations in the lives of people. It seems occasionally I meet an individual who has an exceptional understanding that is above and beyond that of the general church population. Maybe there aren’t limits on revelation. Maybe its just a matter of meeting the criteria for certain doors to open and it seems that the church has very rarely been able to reach those levels together as a group.

[Anonymous]

I agree with Bill, that they are receiving promptings and direction the same as we do, but they get it for the church and I get it for myself. I also think they are holier men than I am, so they probably get more frequent and stronger revelations than I do (just an assumption). But just as some people have seen visions (I’m not a visionary person…not my gift), I think some GAs and apostles have some of those experiences too…but it is the exception, not the every day occurrence or something that necessarily comes with being called to an office.

I don’t think angels or God has to appear to every new prophet for them to be prophets.

I also think there were periods of JS life when he received lots of visitations and strong revelations, and then other periods where he did more of the administration and ministering and didn’t have constant intense manifestations that he had in some periods of his life.

If the Lord has no need to send new or big revelations, He doesn’t do it just because we want that to happen all the time to continue to satisfy our faith or curiosity. It is done when needed, and if a small prompting to a prophet suffices…that’s all that needs to be sent from heaven. And because the church is large and already moving in a direction…I think it is needed less now then when it was starting up and the persecutions were fierce. Many pioneers had huge heavenly experiences before they had to travel to SLC to sustain their faith for the trip.

[Anonymous]

Good question spacious maze.

I remember listening to cassette tapes from Hugh B. Brown, one of my favorite apostles, under David O McKay, who was a lawyer and from Canada. He was the one who did the quote: “He who has never doubted, has never thought.” In one of his tapes he talked about what he went through when he was called as an apostle. He said something to the effect: “It seems whenever someone is called to this calling, they have to go through a huge battle with the devil” and then goes on to describe what a horrendous experience it was for him to fight with the devil. I think there are many good GA’s who are sincere and caring, but I have come to learn to not put them on a pedestal like I used to. I have learned that they are no different than other prophets in the scriptures who struggle with their own predjudices and weaknesses. Sometimes, I think they have said prophecies that did not come true or were very biased and even harmful. I would imagine though that Satan would work much harder on GA’s then someone not in that position. There are times when I thought they should have known whether something that was supposed to be scripture or records presented to them, but turned out to be a hoax. That is why I absolutely believe I need personal revelation to confirm to me when it comes to accepting any revelations from the church leaders.

[Anonymous]

Fwiw, I have had lots and lots of inspiration moments – and a few really powerful, undeniable revelations. I don’t expect anything different of the apostles and prophets – so I do believe they receive revelations that we would term to be revelations.

Honestly, I don’t think our society would accept another Joseph Smith – even less than it did the first one.

[Anonymous]

Heber13 wrote:

I also think they are holier men than I am,…

My $.002, I disagree with this. I know it is traditionally viewed like this, but I really don’t see any of us “holier” than another, regardless of the title or calling. I do think we all have our roles in this life — some to lead, others to follow. But I actually view the stratification of humanity as a result of human pride and ego, and has been quite disastrous in our history.

Now I DO respect the church leaders for what they do. It is admirable for them to keep the faith continuously, and constantly find the words to strengthen the faith of the members. Without them, many would lead lives of chaos and despair.

I just think the ordinary, common member is equal in every way in the eyes of God.

(and especially you, Heber!!!)

[Anonymous]

I have to agree with Rix on this one. I don’t think the GAs are necessarily “holier” than others, they just have a different role and calling in life. For example, I believe I was given my questioning nature as a gift of God. I will likely never be a GA (well, that and I have the wrong chromosomes) because of that. One who is or will be a GA is more likely to tow the party line and be a super TBM. Perhaps the ability to be unwavering in the faith is part of their special gifts. I would be so unhappy having to be under the microscope that way. They can do their part, and I will do mine. I do think that the GAs receive some revelation, but not so much the “thus sayeth the Lord” types lately. I know I also receive revelation for myself. I don’t think it is much different.

[Anonymous]

Rix wrote:

(and especially you, Heber!!!)

Thanks Rix. You are a holy man!

I certainly agree the title or calling doesn’t make one elevated above another, we all have a work to do, just different parts to play. Ray had a nice blog post about his father that made me think a lot about the callings we are given…some public and some private in our homes. (see blogpost here: http://thingsofmysoul.blogspot.com/2007/10/my-niece-died-this-morning.html” class=”bbcode_url”>http://thingsofmysoul.blogspot.com/2007/10/my-niece-died-this-morning.html

How we perform our calling is all that is important in God’s eyes.

However, some people are “holier” or more righteous in their hearts than others, I think, by their choices and by the love in their hearts. I esteem most of the GAs as this way, just based on observation…but certainly your advice is well worthwhile and the status is less important. Thanks for reminding me of that!

Perhaps another question for Spacious Maze to answer (or others): Does revelation depend on worthiness or righteousness or being holy?

[Anonymous]

I certainly think receiving revelation is a privilege. I know I feel closer to God and feel the spirit more often when I’m being a good fellow. It only makes sense that one should be in the right state of character to be able to receive the Lord.

And back to the original question; I was wondering more about the JS revelations, where he would kneel in prayer, ask something of God, and turn and speak God’s words to his scribe. Does that kind of revelation/relationship still exist?

[Anonymous]

spacious maze wrote:

And back to the original question; I was wondering more about the JS revelations, where he would kneel in prayer, ask something of God, and turn and speak God’s words to his scribe. Does that kind of revelation/relationship still exist?

In my opinion, no. Perhaps the landscape is different, and with the church established and councils and general conferences and on and on…there is less need for major visions like in Joseph’s day.

It is interesting to me that the church’s teaching to investigators is that the heavens aren’t closed…that just as God spoke to prophets in ancient times, God has spoken to prophets in our day. That is the teaching. So the possibility of these kind of revelations is believed by most members…yet look at how the canonized scriptures (D&C) have not been added to since 1918.

[Anonymous]

Heber13 wrote:

spacious maze wrote:

And back to the original question; I was wondering more about the JS revelations, where he would kneel in prayer, ask something of God, and turn and speak God’s words to his scribe. Does that kind of revelation/relationship still exist?

In my opinion, no. Perhaps the landscape is different, and with the church established and councils and general conferences and on and on…there is less need for major visions like in Joseph’s day.

It is interesting to me that the church’s teaching to investigators is that the heavens aren’t closed…that just as God spoke to prophets in ancient times, God has spoken to prophets in our day. That is the teaching. So the possibility of these kind of revelations is believed by most members…yet look at how the canonized scriptures (D&C) have not been added to since 1918.

Maybe I see this a little differently. I am not sure the revelations recieved by prophets are only “valid” or revolutionary when they reveal something new. I am rereading the bofm and I just finished the book of Jacob. An angel came to the dude and told him to tell the men to shape up and gave them a thing or two to thing about with regards to desiring riches. I think the same thing happens today and anyone who attends priesthood session would agree. I also think that prophets may obtain visions or experiences simply for themselves that they are perhaps warned not to share. If Moses could ask and then be shown all the worlds and Joseph F ask and be shown the spirit world, why couldn’t Tom ask to see the same and be granted it?

Beyond that , I personally believe there is more cannon waiting for us. The BofM defintely had a sealed portion and the BofM speaks of different records from all the tribes of Israel that will one day be available. It doesn’t seem odd to me that God would deliver up some scriptures and then let the people deal with that portion for a long while. Moses did it. The Nephites did it with the plates of brass. I am not really sure the early church had a canon beyond what the Jews had and the sermons that were recorded. I guess I am not sure it is fair to say that their is no revelation just because it isn’t brand new. I think we still get stuff that is hot off the press. But perhaps I am returning to my idealistic ways.

[Anonymous]

There are certain people, like Joseph Smith and Moses, who seem to be in a category all by themselves. Then there are other prophets: Amos, Obadiah, Pres Hinckley, Monson, who are very different types of prophets than Joseph Smith and Moses. So, no, I don’t think that Pres Monson gets the same types of revelations that Moses did. Joseph Smith and Moses are in very unique company.

[Author]

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